What bout Columbia Evangelical Seminary???

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by asiatrek, Aug 20, 2002.

Loading...
  1. asiatrek

    asiatrek New Member

    I have visited their website
    I am impressed with their 'mentoring' program
    I think this is a very good idea
    It is akin to the 'coaching' concept that
    I have seen online

    I have seen that Mr. Bear has some good
    comments about the school and its program

    But what I am gathering from reading posts
    is that of getting a degree from an RA school
    and to my knowledge many christian schools
    are not in this category

    For example my degrees are
    from Northwest College in Kirkland WA
    and Western Evangelical Seminary
    which was in Portland OR but has now
    merged with George Fox

    Thus if I want to get an advanced degree
    it would be quite difficult for me to move
    my family somewhere.
    If I got accepted into Columbia and finished
    their program I am wondering where it is
    accepted and by whom?

    I noticed a post comparing Trinity
    (not TED) with Moody and Dallas
    as a big joke

    So a person shells out more than 5000 US
    and then what?
    My concern is not getting a job in a company
    or institution or gov't position
    but rather getting a job or position in the
    Religious campground

    It is also interesting to me that on Baker's
    website there is no listing of DMin degrees
    which are very popular these days
    Also I have noted that most of the advanced
    degrees are for Education or Counseling
    which happens to be very very popular these days.

    Another item would be -- is there life outside
    of the USA? (big grin)
    Many of the posts seem to suggest that most
    of the posters are trying to find some school
    and potential future in the USA

    but this is not my cup of tea
    since I have no plan to move back
    and I would hazard a guess that there
    must be a large glut of Phd looking for
    positions

    Another item is the cost of the degrees

    What benefit would someone get from
    a B.D. from London?
    even tho it is prestigious


    oops rambling too much

    back to the ranch and the subject line

    any comments about Columbia?
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Greetings,

    Baker does not include DMin programs because (as he says on his web site) they are by their nature a mix of short residency and independent study.

    There are many RA/TRACS/ATS accredited programs.

    CES is I believe a well meaning an honest attempt by R. Walston. A degree from them may be somewhat limiting as they are not accredited.

    I assume you are looking for a doctorate. You have a number of choices that are not expensive and are accredited or the equivalent of accredited. Why get an unaccredited doctorate when you can get an equivalent of accredited doctorate for less than 2000 US dollars for the entire program. It is a research D.Th from UNIZUL (University of Zululand). They are one of the state universities in South Africa. You can register throught the South Africa Theological Seminary who will do the leg work for you. A few people here are doing a doctorate through UNIZUL. Another completely DL doctorate is available through American Christian College and Seminary at 180 per credit hour (Amplified DMin, Dmin or 60 credit hour DMin in Christian Counseling).
    http://www.accs.edu

    Good luck & spend your education $ wisely.

    North
     
  3. levicoff

    levicoff Guest

    There's an old expression . . .

    . . . common in the study of law: Res ipsa loquitor (the thing speaks for itself).

    Columbia Evangelical Seminary is, indeed, a joke. And the thing that speaks best for it is a series of pictures of the "school," which you will find at this link - all two rooms of the school.

    Like I said, res ipsa loquitor.
     
  4. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Actually, it's res ipsa loquitur. :p
     
  5. asiatrek

    asiatrek New Member

    CES is a joke????

    To North

    thanx very much for your post
    it really fits what I have been reading for
    the last 8 hours.....
    sheeesh I really need to take a break
    from this forum!!

    To levicoff

    I am confused about something....
    Didn't Waltson the Pres of CES co-write
    a book with John Bear?

    I would agree with North that CES might be
    limiting since it is no accredited
    but I wonder about it being a joke...
    as much a joke as Therapon or other
    websites where you can get a Thd for $700-800
    why would Waltson co-write a book about
    christian distance ed programs
    and then create a school ?
    of course I know that his school has
    been around for awhile

    I am very curious as to what benefit
    someone gets from going thru say
    Trinity or many of the other ones that I have
    seen on the Net like Therapon
    Adonai --
    I have even seen comments about
    Golden State etc....

    I have read that ??? got his degree
    thru GSST and now is going to American
    Christian for his DMin

    I wonder how my Taiwanese friends would
    feel about shelling out $130,000 NT for
    their DMin if they read this forum?

    I would guess that the seminaries over here
    in SE Asia would not fare very well back
    in the West

    In Taiwan there is China Evangelical Seminary
    and Taiwan Theological Seminary
    and some other less known names which
    I have forgot or cannot easily translate into
    English.

    My own problem is that I do not have any
    pastoral experience and thus getting into
    some DMin programs are out of the picture

    I have even toyed with the idea about
    trying to get Taiwan's seminary to let me
    on board as a special student since my
    chinese is not so hot.....
    Probably one of my goals is to find a small
    bible - christian college where I can teach
    but I know that this is very slim pickings
    even if I finished at an accredited school
    since DMin and Phd are now glutting the
    market......

    so far no one has responded to my
    so-so joke about -- is there life outside of
    the US?
     
  6. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    Asiatrek:

    I wonder if Dr Arthur Song at Unizul might not be the very person you should contact. He's published a fair bit on the cultural situation of Chinese South Africans and gave an interesting talk on Confucian values in SA at the Parliament of World Religions in Cape Town in 1999. Other post-ers have spoken of his helpfulness. If your location coincides at all with your interests in further study, Dr Song might be a valuable contact.


    As far as the non-TEDS Trinity: they talk a good talk, but the pieces just don't quite fit together. Then there's the other school they run in Evansville...:rolleyes:

    Dr Walston is more straightforward, but the absence of accreditation should be a matter of very serious pondering. Still, *ethically* speaking: better no accreditation than gimcrack accreditation. Whatever the levels of prestige associated with one agency or another, if it ain't a USDE/CHEA-recognized accrediting organization, it just ain't.

    Hope you will be able to proceed with your studies in an effective and honorable way. :cool:
     
  7. Larry46

    Larry46 New Member

    Just an info note - Professor Song is on leave thru Sept, but Saint Reuben van Rensburg could certainly answer any general questions about the theological school or UNIZUL.
     
  8. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Re: There's an old expression . . .

    Actually, Steve, I believe that CES moved its operations into a single room of a church in WA. I saw a picture on the CES webpage awhile back, but I can't seem to locate it now.


    Bruce
     
  9. uncle janko

    uncle janko member

    It's in an Evangelical Free Church, possibly in Buckley, Washington (not sure of place).
     
  10. asiatrek

    asiatrek New Member

    why? why? why?

    thanks for the info
    Hello Larry!
    It looks like you live in Kirkland Yea!
    You should be aware of my alma mater then!
    I lived in bellevue for 6 years -- great place!


    Actually I am now working on my Lit. Review for my program through UNISA with Prof. AP Phillips
    in the Practical Theology dept
    with my topic -- Theological Education for lay leaders in my small chinese church

    Reading thru this stuff (Theo Ed) makes me want to enlist Bill Grover sometimes.... er uh uh but then again I just finished reading how not to upset your advisor/supervisor (big grin)
    my point was going to be the opposite I think concerning Karl Barth
    my lit review material tossed him out the window in two sentences!
    no I am not a big fan of him but sheeeesh

    I should be careful tho
    I might get caught in Bill's tornado....
    I am really dead meat everytime I read some of his tag lines..... ya know bout the Wesleyean/Arminian - women preachers etc etc...
    (very big grin)

    The part of my pre-doctoral reading program that is not so easy for me --- is the reading of all the research methodology stuff I need to pick up on

    I wrote to my advisor asking him how I can do random sampling when I already know who I need to interview! I am not really sure if I really need to comprehend all that stuff or not

    My pre-doctoral reading program was 70/30 in favor of research methods....
     
  11. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: CES is a joke????

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Actually whereas in ATS schools the three years of ministerial experience may be a requisite, that is not the case in some TRACS accredited seminaries as American. While I do not like the nomenclature -DMin.-My program at American is entirely in Biblical/theological studies and i am not ordained. I thought it peculiar that one could enter the EdD at OSU having taught only two years!

    So, you went to WES? I used to drive by that twice a week while attending Western Conservative Baptist Seminary...also taught public school 19 years in Newburg where WES now is a part of George Fox.

    I suppose that Steve, in his usual not light handed method, when he says CES is a joke refers not to Walston's integrity but to the appropriateness of such a tiny operation awarding such varied degrees. What some here, as North and I, (if I'm wrong hope North will correct me) maintain is that a minimum criterion for respectability in the eyes of many in academe is accreditation recognised by the Government. This includes regional (best in USA), Gov accredited as in SA, Tracs. These supposedly assure at least minimum levels of academic integrity.But we feel Christians need to be respectable. So, were it possible ,in all cases degrees should be accredited. The future plans and present connections somewhat determine the utility of each.

    Is there life outside of the USA? Are you really that homesick? Doesn't life come from within? Give me my studies and a small room with a view, and oh my dog, and I'll live well enough!:rolleyes:
     
  12. asiatrek

    asiatrek New Member

    WES -- a great school!!

    I want to say that you have earned
    5 stars in my book thus far!!!

    This comment goes to Bill Grover -- telfax (i think this is right -- too lazy to look it up again)
    and North

    Also russell thanx a lot!

    What a great place to be even if the spammers
    did their best to blow it away!

    After spending quite a few hours trying to catch up
    from 100 days before until now I am starting to catch the drift of the posts

    There should be alot more clones of Bill
    made -- Evangelical Christianity really needs
    more clones like him! (big grin)

    you apparently did not catch onto my bad
    humor about the line
    is there life outside the US?
    I have not been homesick since I left for Germany
    in 1973!

    I was trying to be sarcastic......
    There are sooooo many ethnocentric foreigners over here and tooooo many Taiwanese are always asking me why I do not wish to move back to the US.

    The thread I enjoyed and appreciated the most thus far has to do with CES by Walston.

    I am still undecided about his program and school even tho is unacredited BUT I would certainly take it ANYDAY over Trinity!!!!

    Yes I have not gone to either
    I did try to apply to Trinity and of course
    was immediately accepted....
    (this always makes me suspicious!)
    But after checking their forums and other
    online stuff I decided it wasn't for me.
    Especially the part about the cassettes
    Ugh gag me with mud -----
    shipping it all the way over to Taiwan
    sheeeesh
    Then I sent email to Olford (?) a preacher
    who has his own website and shared
    some thoughts with him
    He then forwarded my email to their Vice Pres
    who of course never sent anything to me.....
    Next I spent a costly dime on a number of
    phone calls that ended in complete frustration!

    Wunderful place? Hopeful candidate for RA?
    sheeeeesh
    You guys can complain about CES but I think
    Walston is more respectable in my eyes....

    However this does bring up something
    that probably has been hit in the head
    a zillion times
    Bill's comment about christians getting
    an accredited degree as in getting respect

    I have not checked recently but I am
    assuming that my degrees are from
    accredited institutions and NONE of the
    foreigners over here have any respect
    for my degrees at all including my
    Canadian co-worker who only has a
    BA from a school in Edmonton

    I caught the point and I agree with it
    in general but then again in my experience
    since I graduated in '86 I find that many
    non-christians think my degrees are akin
    to something like basket weaving....
    Isn't this an irony since I have noticed posts
    indicating that Theology was certainly
    challenging than other courses!

    By the way I thoroughly enjoyed my time
    at WES -- thoroughly -- probably as much
    or more than you at Western
    I vaguely recall some jokes about both
    schools.....

    I had great teachers at both Northwest
    and WES....
    too bad George Fox doesn't have a DL
    program!!!!

    Right now I am checking into some schools
    in Australia.

    Too bad I have decided not to get into
    anymore theological tangos or we could
    have lots of fun!!!!! (very big grin)

    WES allowed charismatics into the school
    but told them to be "normal" (big grin)

    if you check out my tag line you can see
    who I really adore!!

    (sarcasm in case some doesn't get my
    poor humor... Me and Unca Billy do not
    get along very well -- in fact I requested
    that I use .rtf file format insteac of .doc
    which is saved by M$ Word with a school


    KEEP UP THE FANTASTIC WORK
    GUYS!!!!
    YOU ARE REALLY HELPING PEOPLE
    MAKE WISE DECISIONS WITH THEIR
    TIME AND MONEY
     
  13. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    The context of my point about respect was academe. My guess is that mosts folks cannot differentiate accreditation from maple syrup and many do not care. As for churchfolk, their gullibility exceeds the average. However, I consider my schooling to be done for God and so I want it to be as good as my situation will allow and that usually includes accreditation. As for basic utility I could not here in Oregon legally even use degrees from CES or Trinity in many contexts. As I may volunteer myself to gratuitously teach, I want to be respectable academically which again for the most part requires accreditation. Thanks for those nice comments about me, but many here are better deserving of them. I have wasted more time than I have used profitably. At times I grieve over this. At 62 I should be all done with this, but I have years to go!:(
     
  14. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: why? why? why?

     
  15. Guest

    Guest Guest

    "Usually includes accreditation," and "for the most part requires accreditation," are indeed interesting phrases.

    I too affirm that in the vast majority of scenarios it is best to pursue a degree which has USDoE/CHEA recognized accreditation. This is especially true at the undergraduate level, or if one is going to use the degree to pursue further studies or as a teaching credential.

    However, even Baker, Walston and Bear admit that for some people a substantive unaccredited graduate degree may suffice. No degree mills here, but programs which require a solid regimen of study. Baker's example is of one whose denomination accepts an unaccredited M.Div. for ordination. Walston's examples are similar, and Bear's formula is that the degree meet one's present and future needs.

    So while RA is the gold standard, and for most this is the route to take, let's not negate that minority of people for whom an unaccredited graduate level degree may indeed suffice.
     
  16. Myoptimism

    Myoptimism New Member

    Re: Re: why? why? why?

     
  17. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    Re: Re: Re: why? why? why?

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Theses/dissertations are done with limitations or qualifications. I am not addressing all religious beliefs! In the scope of evangelical theology, in which my thesis is done, the New Testament regulary portrays trinal relationships .--(again within classical Christian theism)-- EG, it is said that from eternity the Father loves the Son. My opinion is that a love relationship with "Another"requires centers of consciousness. Do you disagree given this context? I made no reference to man's psyche.

    Colossians and Ephesians define for the Evangelical the ways man is in God's image. These do not relate to essential constituents of human personality but to potentials for righteousness and holiness.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2002
  18. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    "may indeed suffice" is also an interesting phrase:

    "May" is an adverb which portrays uncertainty or contingency. It is much weaker than "probably." Would RA or the equivalent in most contexts be of greater value? "Certainly." One must then decide is it more preferable to have "maybe" or "probably" as an aspect of one's future.

    "Indeed" is another adverb which conveys the notion of "in fact." "May indeed" seems a peculiar combination! It is an attempt to equip uncertainty with certainty! More congenial to "indeed" is "will indeed." But in this context which compares the future utility of accredited vs nonaccredited degrees, the certainty implied in " will indeed" , speaking now of consistency in wide applications, is overly optimistic-indeed!

    But "suffice" is the difficult word here. "suffice" for what? For present and future self satisfaction? For mere learning? For honesty? For all future needs? To be the best one can be? To avoid constant defense of ones degree? Don't misunderstand, even accredited degrees will not always "suffice." Were my current doc programs to be actually finished, ACCS is "only" TRACS and TRACS is not RA, and Unizul likely will not earn me a spot at Dallas TS. But ACCS and UZ as far as I know are respectable and Gov approved. So could an argument be made that since even "accredited" degrees are not always *entirely* useful, the answer to *all* situations, might some not do just fine with unaccredited?

    Maybe, but then arises the question , if an accredited degree ,in most all situations is more valuable, is available and affordable, then why pursue the unaccredited? Why settle for the "maybe" when one can acquire the "probably"? If I buy something, like a hamburger (my other love) for two bucks, I hope to be more enthusiastic than "maybe" it will taste good! How much more should I be concerned over the usefulness and quality of my degrees which I must live with?

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
     
  19. Guest

    Guest Guest

    This is indeed my proposal, Bill.

    An unaccredited graduate degree will "in fact" suffice for some people, in some situations, contingent upon one's specific situation.

    The guy/gal practicing psychology in California based on RA bachelor's/master's degrees and a Cal Coast Ph.D. would fit nicely in this category. The CCU doctorate did "in fact" suffice, contingent upon CA's allowance of such a degree.
     
  20. Bill Grover

    Bill Grover New Member

    ****************************************

    But Russell

    Your illustration covers only present usefulness and that only in part. Future contingencies are not addressed , and present sufficiencies as POSSIBLE lack of respect in academe or even among other professionals and POSSIBLY not landing that desired teaching position and keeping this job as a second best and POSSIBLE lack self satisfaction are not faced in your example. I think your argument is not proven because some folks can get a job with an RA MA and then later acquire an unaccred doc! We neither know that the CCU currently meets all the needs of that individual nor that it will in the future. Nor did you address the issue of why opt for an unaccred doc when accred are available and affordable.

    But my friend, I cannot keep up with the volume of fencing we do on this subject for a while! School and ACCS soon begin;) Best to you,



    *****************************************
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 25, 2002

Share This Page