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  1. #1
    Johann is offline Registered User
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    UK Universities, European Students ... and Brexit

    Last edited by Johann; 09-08-2017 at 03:21 PM.

  2. #2
    mintaru is offline Registered User
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    Of course, it's bad news, but it's also hardly surprising. That's what the opponents of Brexit said would happen. The Brexit supporters said, of course, the gap will be filled by students from other countries, like China. That argument was also made in that article. Maybe that's also true, we will see.

    I think the real losers here are the students from EU countries, and maybe the British students if it turns out the Brexit supporters were wrong.

    But there is another negative effect of Brexit on EU students. The recognition of British degrees is almost completely based on EU law. No one knows how it will work when Brexit is implemented. The most likely scenario is that every EU country has its own rules. It is possible these rules are not too different from the current rules, but I doubt that's always the case. Of course, all that only affects people who want to work in regulated professions. In unregulated professions, the only one who has to recognize a degree is the employer, and I'm sure every employer will recognize a British degree.

    I can give you an example of what I mean: There is a qualification here in Germany, the so called "staatlich geprüfter Techniker" (or "state certified engineer " in English). It is a combination of 3 or 3.5 years of approved apprenticeship (within Germany's so called "dual education system") with 2 years or Technical school and passing state examinations.That qualification is considered (by EU law) to be equivalent to the British 'incorporated engineer '. Some British schools admit people with that German qualification into 'Master of Engineering 'or 'Master of Science in Engineering ' programs. This is not possible in Germany itself. (although the 'state certified engineer ' is at level 6 on DQF and EQF.) Right now, graduates of these British degrees (who lack a Bachelor's degree) get their degree recognized in Germany, but there was always some significant opposition to that practice in Germany. That wasn't a real problem until now since the recognition was based on EU law, but that could easily change after Brexit.

    And this is just one example in one EU country.

  3. #3
    heirophant is offline Registered User
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    UK universities face EU student exodus due to Brexit - ABC News

    The first four paragraphs of this journalistic opinion-piece don't appear to be consistent.

    The second paragraph tells us that because he's EU, this Italian guy enjoys half the tuition at LSE that other foreign students must pay, he can work internships without a work permit and doesn't need a visa.

    The third paragraph says that Brexit threatens all that.

    Then the fourth paragraph tells us that he's decided to leave LSE and study at Columbia University in the United States instead. The US isn't a EU member (USexit happened in 1776). Being a EU citizen carries no perks in the US and this guy will be subject to foreign student tuition at Columbia, he will also need a work permit and a visa.

    So apparently he has other reasons for leaving LSE. It's not really about Brexit at all. (That's just how the 'journalist' wanted to spin the story.) If this guy's reason for leaving LSE was the possibility that he might lose the EU perks, then one would expect this guy to resurface at an Italian university or at a university elsewhere in the EU.

  4. #4
    mintaru is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by heirophant View Post
    UK universities face EU student exodus due to Brexit - ABC News

    The first four paragraphs of this journalistic opinion-piece don't appear to be consistent.

    ...

    Then the fourth paragraph tells us that he's decided to leave LSE and study at Columbia University in the United States instead. The US isn't an EU member (USexit happened in 1776). Being an EU citizen carries no perks in the US and this guy will be subject to foreign student tuition at Columbia, he will also need a work permit and a visa.

    So apparently he has other reasons for leaving LSE. It's not really about Brexit at all. (That's just how the 'journalist' wanted to spin the story.) If this guy's reason for leaving LSE was the possibility that he might lose the EU perks, then one would expect this guy to resurface at an Italian university or at a university elsewhere in the EU.
    I understand why you think that, but I'm not sure you're right. I would agree with you if I would think those EU perks were the most important reason why he did go to LSE in the first place, but I don't think so. My point is there are EU countries where he can work internships without a work permit, doesn't need a visa, and there are no tuition fees.

    I believe the answer is in the first paragraph:
    Growing up in a small Italian farming town, Andrea Guerini Rocco dreamed of pursuing a career in economics in a big, bustling city.
    Of course, I don't know what that guy really did, but I think he has a list of cities where he wants to work in the future. London and New York both are on that list. I guess he did choose LSE because he thinks a degree from that school will make it easier to realize that dream... + there are those EU perks. He thinks now he will lose these benefits, and - without them - Columbia University becomes the better deal.

    You could say I'm just speculating, and you're right, but that is also true for your point of view. That article lacks the information to verify who of us is right. Maybe that's a sign of less than wonderful journalism . Maybe that is even something both of us can agree to: there is better journalism than that article.

    But even if you are right, does that mean there is no problem at all. I don't think so. At the other hand, even if there is a problem, maybe that's just some kind of temporary 'adjustment pain'. - I do not know the answer to that.

  5. #5
    Johann is offline Registered User
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    I thought Andrea Rocco's move to NY for his Master's was pretty well explained in the article:

    "Tuition is pricy in the United States and he'll need more paperwork - but at least there's clarity. He knows what he's signing up for and can plan ahead. (Emphasis mine - J.)

    Quote Originally Posted by heirophant
    It's not really about Brexit at all.
    "If Brexit was not happening I would have stayed in London," the 22-year-old said. "The university is great. I love LSE."


    So it is about Brexit - word up from Andrea himself. Am I missing something?

    J.
    Last edited by Johann; 09-11-2017 at 02:42 PM.

  6. #6
    heirophant is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johann View Post
    I thought Andrea Rocco's move to NY for his Master's was pretty well explained in the article:
    The "article" (some writer's hostile opinion about Brexit presented in the guise of a news story) doesn't make very much sense.

    "Yet Britain's vote to leave the European Union changed all that. When the country leaves the bloc in 2019, there's no promise that the financial and immigration perks for incoming European students and workers will remain."

    "So after the Brexit vote, when Rocco was preparing to enroll in a master's degree, he decided to move to Columbia University in New York instead. Tuition is pricey in the United States and he'll need more paperwork - but a least there's clarity. He knows what he's signing up for and can plan ahead."

    "If Brexit was not happening I would have stayed in London," the 22-year-old said. "The university is great. I love LSE."[/I]

    So it is about Brexit - word up from Andrea himself. Am I missing something?
    You certainly seem to be missing my point.

    Maybe Rocco is reacting to Brexit, but if so, he's not thinking straight.

    Let's imagine a worst-case effect of Brexit on people like him, a situation where all his most fearful speculations about Brexit's effect on people like him in London come to pass. Suppose that he has to pay more to attend LSE and loses the automatic right to remain in London and work in the UK after graduation.

    My point is that even the most baleful Brexit would only result in London effectively becoming the same as New York City already is. Columbia is more expensive than LSE, and Rocco will have no guaranteed right to remain in New York after he graduates either. Moving from London to NYC will just guarantee that his worst fears about what Brexit might do to his life and his plans do in fact become reality.

    So it seems reasonably clear that fears that Brexit might cause him to lose something that he values aren't what's guiding his choice of domiciles, since he's voluntarily moving from a situation where that loss is only hypothetical into a situation where it is sure to happen.
    Last edited by heirophant; 09-11-2017 at 05:44 PM.

  7. #7
    Johann is offline Registered User
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    You may regard him as misguided if you like, but Andrea SAID what he SAID. In his own words, he's leaving because of Brexit. You said he wasn't. "It's not really about Brexit at all."

    My take: Andrea's leaving because what was virtually guaranteed him pre-Brexit is likely being taken away - and he doesn't want to be somewhere that "revises" its perks whenever it suits. Bad principle, UK. Your loss.

    J.

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