University of Phoenix Hits the Nail on the Head

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by defii, Jul 19, 2002.

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  1. defii

    defii New Member

    In the San Francisco Bay Area, the University of Phoenix has been touting a degree as one of the best investments a person could make. This Census Bureau report (on CNN's web site) certainly supports what their ads have been claiming. Here's a link to the article: CNN Article on Income Potential of Degree Holders

    Additionally, here's a snipet that summarizes the content:

    Here's to higher education...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2002
  2. Andy Borchers

    Andy Borchers New Member

    Great point - but there is a qualifier, the good old world "average". On average education pays off. There are exceptions, however. Some high school graduates make more than some college graduates, for example. There are some folks with PhD's that have low earnings. The degree isn't the only casual factor - one's motivation and intelligence also come into play. I'd argue that it isn't just the degree that helps you make a higher income - it is the skills and knowledge you gain through education.

    In the DL world the incredible push to sell credentials, rather than education, is quite unsettling to me. I fear that many DL programs are selling degree programs to marginal students who lack the intellect to really benefit from them. Making access easy (e.g. no GMAT, 2.5GPA acceptable and a strong "customer" focus) leads to marginal graduate students and lowered standards. Many folks complete DL based MBA's and find that they don't immediately increase their earnings. Further, if you are under the illusion that an MBA from a typical DL MBA program puts you in the same league as a Harvard MBA graduate - you're probably going to be in for a suprise.

    I heartily encourage people to pursue more education. But please focus on learning and growing - not letters after your name. Don't assume that your boss owes you a pay raise just because you got another degree - use the skills you gained through education to show your boss that you are more productive and capable.

    Regards - Andy

     
  3. defii

    defii New Member

    Well said, Andy. I can't argue with that. Let me share just one brief anecdote. A friend recently completed a M.P.A. through a regular residential program. It is surely one of the most respectable MPA programs in the area. She is feeling a bit frustrated because she assumed that earning the degree would immediately catapult her into a senior management role. It has not been so. She doesn't have the corresponding experience. Earning the credentials is only a part of it.
     
  4. drwetsch

    drwetsch New Member

    Andy.

    Here! Here! You are right on. Lifelong Learning is the key. When on the job be willing to learn and adapt.

    John
     
  5. Dr Dave

    Dr Dave New Member

    Two quick points on this discussion:

    1) "On average" always reminds me of the man who had one arm stuck in a refrigerator and the other in an oven and, therefore, must have been comfortable.

    2) While a degree may be specified in a particular job specification, for the successful candidate it is never more than the admission ticket. Once hired, the person's degree and school are very quickly forgotten by most. From that point on, the effective application of knowledge, i.e., performance, is everything. In the global economy, I would take it a step farther. The common refrain is, "What have you done for us today?" Like the gladiator, if you can answer that well, then you get to fight in the sun another day.
     
  6. Denver

    Denver Member

    Wouldn’t it be great if there were a formula you could value an education with? Something along the lines of: Years of Work Experience X Type of Degree X Rank of School X GPA. I’m sure I left out some of the variables and would be glad to have someone add (or subtract from) the formula.
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Re: University of Phoenix Hits the Nail on the Head

    Excellent points Andy! Reminds me of a recent National column that helps with job information. A women wrote in because her husband was frustrated. He apparently quit work to go back to school and jump start his career with an MBA. No jump start. He finished and was now in a situation where he had been off the market for two years. One of the panel responding in the column said she did not know how many times she had heard of similar situations because peopel think if only I go back to school my career will really take off.

    So many factors are involved. Without the MBA mabe you get laid off and find a hard time getting a job because you are older and/or don't have the credential. But, you take off as the man did above and get the degree and...................no job. Or I know a guy who finished his MBA in night school and then got laid off anyway (plus had graduate degree debt). So many individual factors. As you mentioned above with regard to PhD's, I know a PHD who when I told him I was considering going to Walden and wanted to evaluate the debt load vs career opportunity. He told me why bother as he was barely making it in private practice. I met another PhD (History) who was an E-6 in the army and worked as adjunct faculty at a state university.

    Getting the graduate degree can be somewhat of a gamble in terms of pay off so you need to balance how much debt you can handle and means of earning the degree versus pay off. I have no doubt in my case the MA was responsbile for my getting the last three positions I have.

    I am earning an accredited doctorate in Christian counseling for person reasons with little concern about whether it pays off but who knows.

    North
     
  8. sulla

    sulla New Member

    Heck, didn't Steven Spielberg just completed his bachelors degree this Spring? Did he need it to get a job? No. Does the degree mean something to him? hell, yes! a bachellors degree that we take for granted.

    I have heard of famous actors who don't even have a GED (Michael J. Fox just got his GED about 4 years ago) and regardless of all the money they have, they (ironically) envy the unknown average college graduate.

    I am like you. I am pursuing a Ph. D. Regardless of whether it pays off or not economically, I will be proud of my achievement. This is beyond making mo' money for me.

    I have tremendous respect for any other who takes the risk of pursuing an education whether it pays off or not. Any legitimate degree takes dedication and effort, and thats what should be valued along with what you learn.

    just my thoughts,

    -S
     
  9. defii

    defii New Member

    You would probably notice that academic doctorates are not mentioned in the original article. That's because they do not often help a person to earn more money.

    An acquaintance with a Ph.D. now teaching at a local state university at the rank of assitance professor earns approximately 40% of what I earn with a masters degree. I will pursue a doctorate, but I doubt it will do much for me in terms of earning more income. I will do it because it is a personal goal I want to achieve. Your point is well taken, Sulla.
     
  10. Mike Wallin

    Mike Wallin New Member

    U of P

    Get an Education for yourself as inexpensively as possible and dont pay extra for names unless there is a good reason to do so;) just my humble opinion
     
  11. tcnixon

    tcnixon Active Member

    Re: U of P


    This is quite good advice. In my field, the minimum qualifications for most positions is a bachelor's degree and a teaching credential. I have yet to see any advantage to getting a teaching credential at a prestigious university. No one cares. Or at least I've never met the ones that do. Getting a teaching credential from Harvard just seems like overkill.

    When I was earning my teaching credential, several people told me not to get it through National University because there was such bias from principals in hiring. (Have I mentioned that teachers love conspiracy theories?) I got it from NU and I haven't looked back. I have had several interviews over the course of my career. No one has ever even asked where I got my credential from (although they definitely wanted to make sure that I actually had one).

    Get it from whichever is cheapest or the most convenient. There was definitely a cheaper option than National, but no where as convenient. Neither option was any more prestigious than the other (in my opinion).




    Tom Nixon
     
  12. Orson

    Orson New Member

    Earlier posts...

    Earlier posts explain that it is the master's degree program that makes for the superior earner--not doctorates.

    I think that the sheer profusion of MA/MA/MBA/MSW/MSN etcetera degrees, combined with total numbers (i.e., so many more than doctorates), means that it is not merely the degree itself that generates income--rather, it's either the percieved value of the skills generated, or else actually acquired, that explains the higher earning power of advanced degrees.

    Finally, in those several fields that are license protected (e.g., one may only practice psychotherapy or dispense medicines with an MA/MS/MSW), they often generate what economists call "[economic] rents," i.e., the power to exclude free-market entry, i.e., free competition; the market clearing price thereby restricted means that premium income can be had! This is why medical doctors or lawyers are both so famously "high status" in our society, and thus synonymous with high earning power; there is nothing analogous to this for the MBA, save the CPA (and other similar prof designations).

    --Orson
     
  13. Andy Borchers

    Andy Borchers New Member

    Re: Re: U of P

    I hate to disagree with Tom - but I do. The point about going to a prestigious university isn't that you can wow someone in an interview about where you graduated from. The point is that you can wow them with what you know and can do. As I've tried to point out - there is a wide range of faculty quality, student admission selectivity and academic outcomes between top tier and lower tier schools. I encourage people to go to the best school they can reasonably gain aqdmission to and complete.

    As for hiring - name recognition does matter in one's first position. For example, the school district in my hometown has a decided bias for University of Michigan graduates over Western/Central/Eastern Michigan universities. All other things being equal I'd agree. University of Michigan is much more selective in admission then the other schools. Given this and the higher faculty quality of a nationally regarded place like Michigan - I'd hire their grad ahead of others. Note that Michigan's teacher market may be different than other places. Given strong unionization teacher salaries are pretty high. My district often gets as many as 100 applicants for open teaching positions.

    After your first job - name recognition of where you went to school means less. But don't doubt that Harvard MBA grads have an easier time (not to mention contacts) getting a job than a typical DL grad.

    Regards - Andy



     
  14. Mike Wallin

    Mike Wallin New Member

    Paying for a name

    There are times it is worth it to pay a premium for a degree from a certain school . I audited classes at Boalt Hall because
    John Yu Taught there and he was a supreme court clerk for Clerence Thomas when he left to teach at some ivy league school I didnt stick around .:cool:
     
  15. sulla

    sulla New Member

    I see your point, Andy, but I think this has to do more with the personality of the person. For example, some people are good academically but don't do as well in interviews.
    I know people who can wow you with what they know without barely having a degree (if any). In fact, some are self-made millionaires. And I've seen people with Ivy League degrees; some can "wow" you while others, well, put you to sleep no matter how smart they are.

    Andy, I got a personal question for you then. If you are so much into top tier universities, why did you attend NSU? I'm assuming it is Nova, isn't it? or is it Norfolk?
    As far as I know Nova is a low tier (4th), with an underperformance of -8, and has the lowest ranking of all the 4th tier universities (about 53 of them)according to USNEWS (1.8). Even Union and Touro C. are ranked a little higher. Plus, some years back many didn't see a Nova degree as quite legitimate, and I know you got your DBA in 1996.

    I'm not trying to bash NSU. I think it is a fine school, and I agree with most of what you said, but I just want to know why you chose NSU over higher ranked universities.

    -S
     
  16. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member


    At some point in your life, it doesn’t matter where you got your degree from as long as it is legit. I got two master’s degrees from top schools and the value added of DBA of another top school was not going to make a big financial difference for me. A DBA from Nova makes a lot of sense for established professionals. Fourth tier? Besides this forum, I have mentioned NOVA to many and most of the people cannot make a difference between NOVA and Colorado State or any non-known university.
     
  17. 9Chris

    9Chris New Member

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 22, 2002
  18. defii

    defii New Member

    On the Other Hand...

    Well, there is always an exception. USA Today published a report on today, July 22, 2002, where they suggest that MBAs are a bit overrated. It seems that MBA holders tend to have grander notions of their worth than employers do.

    KGO, a local news-talk format radio station in the San Francisco Bay Area, interviewed a business professor from Stanford today, asking for comments on the USA Today article. The professor suggested that a "run of the mill MBA" probably wouldn't do much in terms of increasing a person's worth. He argued that a more prestigious MBA helps a bit. Ok, so he was probably being a little self serving. He works for Stanford.

    It is interesting, nonetheless, to get an idea how MBAs are viewed in the business world today. Here's a link to the USA Today article:

    MBAs No Longer Worth Extra Cash
     
  19. Andy Borchers

    Andy Borchers New Member

    Great points - here is a reply. Thanks - andy



    Great question. When I started my MBA, I was 23, unmarried and on a fellowship from my employer. I attended Vanderbilt, a top 30 MBA program full time. I could have stayed there to complete a PhD, but wanted to return to the work world.

    When I started my DBA, I was 36, married with kids and a mortgage. I looked high and low for the best available program. The two doctoral programs in the state of Michigan (UoM and MSU) are full-time only programs. NSU was the best available program in 1992. If I was starting today - I'd probably go with Case Western.

    My goal was to facilitate a move to academic life. I've achieved this goal and am now in my 5th year of university teaching.

    As for NSU's USNews Rankiing, realize that NSU and Union are the only two major DL driven institutions ranked as national universities. Argosy, Capella, Walden, et al aren't even listed. THe NSU ranking reflect their undergraduate program - not their varied doctoral offerings.

    So to restate my suggestion - attend the best university you can gain admission to, complete and reasonably fit into your life. Do realize the limitations

    Thanks - Andy
     
  20. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Re: On the Other Hand...


    I still think that an MBA can add a lot of value to a business, one of the biggest problems with today’s MBA programs is that we are seeing a reduction from a two year 20 course based program to a 9 course online program. MBAs are valuable because they can deal with taxation, accounting, finance and statistics issues that normally are not so obvious for non-business graduates, however, the tendency with the new MBA programs is to drop this kind of courses that makes the MBA wanted in the market. Why? Because MBAs are moneymakers for universities and they rather drop the courses than students. If a company hires an MBA graduate with no background in accounting, taxation, finance and statistics is normal that it doesn’t see any value added on him. In Canada, in the Montreal area, we are aware of the problem and universities have decided to increase the GMAT requirements, the number of technical courses and decrease the number of students for at least some years, I don’t think this is a solution because you still have the global competition but at least is an effort to regain the status of the MBA in the business community.
     

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