Discrimination (lower cost) vs Non-discrimination (higher cost)?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by chrisjm18, Jan 14, 2017.

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  1. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    So I am contemplating whether I should attend a particular university for my Ed.D. in Organizational Leadership. I was very enthusiastic about attending this school but recently I've been second guessing my choice. The school is a christian university that has applied for exemption from Title IX which, if granted, would allow them to discriminate against gays, transgenders, etc. The program I am considering is an online program with yearly summer residencies. The tuition is $500 per credit (54 total credits) which would be $27, 000. I feel like I shouldn't spend my money at a school that discriminate against people like me. However, I am drawn to the affordable tuition.

    I am now considering Grand Canyon University's Ed.D. in Organizational Leadership (Behavioral Health). The tuition is $640 per credit (60 credits total) which would equate to $38, 400. GCU's program is also online with two required residencies. Grand Canyon is a Christian university but they don't discriminate against LGBT individuals. They have updated their non-discriminatory policy to include same sex marriages for employee benefits. Anyway GCU is a for-profit school and I'm a little concerned about that. I am wondering if the additional tuition is worth it.

    Btw, the other university is Ranked Not Published (Regional) on US News while GCU is Ranked Not Published (National). GCU is over 20 years younger than the other university.

    Considering my lengthy post, what would you attend University A or Grand Canyon University if you were in my position?
     
  2. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    If you don't exercise your moral principles then you have no moral principles.
     
  3. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    If you are not a Christian, why would you attend a Christian University in the first place? It's not discrimination btw.
     
  4. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    I'm curious as to why you did not specifically name "University A." Unless, of course, it is the one in southern Kentucky from which a few supposedly straight-but-liberal whores* on this forum decided to pursue a doctorate despite knowing about their anti-gay policies. But I digress...

    I'm with Kizmet - stick to your moral principles. But also check around further. There are many universities that have started doctoral programs in O.L. It's one of the chic fields these days. And surely you can find something more cost efficient and diverse. There's no rush - you should be comfortable with the choice you ultimately make.
    __________________

    * Did I intend to use the word whores here? Actually, yes, I did.
     
  5. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    At no point did I say I wasn't a Christian. I grew up in the Baptist church but I no longer attend church because of the high level of hypocrisy that exists there. I still consider myself to be a Christian because I maintain my relationship with God.

    I earned my MBA from a Catholic university and I've also worked for a Catholic university.
     
  6. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    LOL... It's not the University of the Cumberlands. Actually UC and Liberty are two of the anti-gay schools that I would never attend. I am kinda pressed for time though because I want to resume my doctoral studies by Summer. I've looked at a lot of options but either they have too much residency requirements, too expensive or requires the GRE (hehe).

    I started at Abilene Christian University last summer but withdrew because of a life event. I can return within a year. They offer an Ed.D. in Org. Lead., which might be an option again. In their online studies handbook they stated: "ACU is committed to providing equal educational opportunities for students without regard to race,
    color, sex, sexual orientation, creed, handicap, genetic information, or national origin. As a private educational institution, however, ACU reserves the right to deny admission to any applicant whose academic preparation, character, or personal conduct is determined to be inconsistent with the purposes and objectives of the university."
     
  7. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    I think I will heed your advice.
     
  8. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Please refresh our memory what schools you used to teach for again?
     
  9. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    Now, that’s funny. Not well constructed in terms of grammar and punctuation, but funny.

    Steve refers to the fact that I used to teach at two conservative Christian schools – one a seminary, one a Bible college graduate school, both RA and professionally accredited (ATS and ABHE).

    What he might not be aware of is that I was perhaps the only out-of-the-closet person ever to do so at either school. (He also neglected to mention that two of my books were published by conservative Christian publishers, Moody Press and Baker Book House.)

    Personally, I love Fundies. They are, despite the usual stereotypes, both fun and mental. And, although I’m somewhat liberal, I’d rather hang out with conservatives any day. They’re far more intelligent and less politically constipated than most liberals when it comes to dialogue on any issue.

    I also love the folks at Bob Jones University, even though they are the most Fundie, and historically racist, school around. In fact, some of my students at BTS and PCB were BJU graduates. But that doesn’t mean that I would enroll as a student at BJU. For one thing, they wouldn’t have me. And, for a number of reasons, I wouldn’t have them.

    I wouldn’t enroll at U. Cumberlands for the same reasons, notwithstanding that I’m not impressed with doctoral programs in organization leadership in general. They’re too generic, too fashionable, and too rote/canned. (FWIW, I did two doctoral leadership courses in my Ph.D. program – one religious, and the other a secular Union seminar in Washington. Which means that Steve and I have likely read some of the same theorists in the field.)

    On the other hand, I’d enroll in Liberty despite their Fundie doctrines, as Liberty is a far more diverse school. I was in Lynchburg last week, and their campus is even more awesome than it was when I attended a course there over 20 years ago.

    If you want to see a great example of how cool Fundies can be, check out the video of Bernie Sanders as Liberty’s convocation speaker. I found the audience very gracious to him, something you would never see from liberals responding to a conservative speaker. (Consider several recent examples of conservative speakers who cancelled their engagements because of protests by liberals whose underwear was too tight.)

    Back to the issue at hand as raised by chrisjm18, I think the important thing is to be yourself, feel at ease with being who or what you are, and be open to getting along with everybody without compromising your positions. If Chris would feel uncomfortable at an anti-gay school, that’s good enough for me. I felt comfortable enough to teach at two such schools, and when it started to become a bit uncomfortable, I moved on. I specifically remember when that happened: Teaching an educational administration course, I was asked by a Fundie pastor who was a Christian school administrator, “Can our church be forced to hire homosexuals?”

    I gave a detailed answer with all of the legal precedents (the answer, by the way, is no, a church can’t be forced to hire anyone), and it hit me mid-response that I was referring to homosexuals as them. “Dude,” I said to myself, "it’s time to get out of this gig.” Since I had already become bored by teaching and had earned my CDL a year earlier, moving on was more than easy.

    (It does bring up a fun memory . . . The last time I was asked to teach at PCB by the head of the graduate counseling department, I asked, “Is this an on-the-record request?” He knew exactly what I meant and said, yes, it had been approved by the president of the school. I considered that somewhat of a moral victory, taught the course, and had a great time.

    So thanks, Steve, for the walk down memory lane. And I stand by everything I said earlier.
     
  10. catlin0915

    catlin0915 New Member

    Have you looked at the American College of Education? They have an Ed. D in Leadership and an Ed. S in Leadership. The tuition is listed at $306 per semester hour. It's RA, but not a Christian school. It's more affordable and online. I've been considering attending this school myself.

    2017 Tuition by Program | American College of Education
     
  11. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Thanks for your feedback. I was actually enrolled at ACE in the Ed.D. in Leadership. I took the first course Intro to Advanced Studies before withdrawing. I withdrew because they don't participate in federal aid and I couldn't afford our of pocket. They partner with Wells Fargo and recently Climb Credit. I might go back or I might put my doctoral plans on hold for now.
     
  12. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Hey Steve L,

    I've made my decision, I won't be attending Southeastern University in Lakeland, FL. I felt uncomfortable from I was writing my Christian faith paper. Although I wouldn't say I lied because I believe in the stuff I wrote, I felt like I conveyed myself as this born-again Christian, which I'm not. I also think I would be uncomfortable if I was to attend the summer residencies and the issue of LGBT came up. I hate to refer to gays as "them." I think I would attend a Catholic university again because I think they are very respectful of others. I worked for a Catholic and Jesuit university which includes sexual orientation in their non-discriminatory policy. My police chief knew from our first interview that I was gay and that was never a factor in hiring me. In addition, I've looked at several Catholic school's non-discriminatory policy and they all include sexual orientation. These include schools such as the University of Scranton, Felician University, Saint Leo, St. Thomas University (FL), College of the Holy Cross, Villanova University and Loyola New Orleans.

    I think I will apply to University of South Africa's PhD in Criminal Justice in September when they begin accepting applications. I should be finishing up at Lamar in March 2018, around the same time UNISA registration period ends for those who have been admitted. I am not looking for prestige because I don't intend to work full-time in academia. My goal is to hold a dual title of an Asst. VP (or VC) Public Safety/Police Chief or Director of Public Safety/Police Chief at a university. I think my MBA and pending M.Sc. will be good enough on the education side to get me there. I want to be an adjunct for criminal justice which I think a master's degree along with my law enforcement experience can help me fulfill that.

    I just want a doctorate because it has been a childhood dream and that explains why I've applied to and have been accepted to five doctoral programs. I am not sure what I should pursue but I want to earn this before I'm 30 (5 years away).

    My confused list of acceptances:
    Abilene Christian University - Ed.D.
    American College of Education - Ed.D.
    Argosy University - DBA
    Grand Canyon University - Ed.D.
    Southeastern University - Ed.D.

    If anyone has any new recommendations considering my future career goals, feel free to chime in.
     
  13. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

  14. FTFaculty

    FTFaculty Well-Known Member

    Don't ever want to teach at a conservative Christian university or want my children to go because there are too many issues, have heard too many stories of people who did attend such places and were censured for holding hands with the opposite sex, wearing the wrong attire per the idiosyncratic opinions of administration, drinking socially when they were of legal drinking age, etc. Being an administrator in such a place is naturally quite attractive to the sociopath, the emotionally disturbed tyrant, thus you get people creating all sorts of petty rules far afield from their scriptures and enforcing them in the most sadistic manner possible.

    But...I don't feel comfortable with things like "shame lists" as applied to institutions that rigorously apply the tenets of their faith. It so happens that the Judeo-Christian scriptures have some pretty strong things to say about sexuality and the proper order of such. One can disagree with the whole premise and say it's ancient backwards nonsense, but don't go shaming those who take it seriously and apply their religious tradition to their lives and private institutions which one are voluntarily joined.
     
  15. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    I think the shame list is needed so that LGBT individuals can be well informed. If we then decide to attend these schools knowing their stances then we have no one to blame but ourselves. In addition, I have no problem with private Christian schools embracing their mission and principles. I have a problem with them discriminating against those who are not consistent with their values but are still collecting federal money. There's a difference between your Christian beliefs and the laws which prohibit discrimination. Schools such as GCU, Pepperdine, Eastern Mennonite and Goshen have realized this and have made the necessary changes to reflect the current laws (which are not based on the Bible).

    GCU for example, in explaining their change to include same sex married couples in their HR policy, maintained their religious stance but stated that federal and state laws have changed. Christian schools can discriminate but they should NOT be given any federal funding since their anti-gay stances run afoul of federal and/or state laws.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2017
  16. FTFaculty

    FTFaculty Well-Known Member

    Haven't said anything on this thread about my religious beliefs (other than I wouldn't feel comfortable teaching at or having my kids at a conservative Christian university).

    Haven't said a word about federal funding, that's up to the federal government and is a completely different issue from any I addressed.

    What I have said is that when people use "Shame List" to describe organizations that are applying the prima facie meaning of their scriptures, when the organizations are private and do not compel anyone to attend them or force anyone to abide by their personal belief systems, I think the word "shame" is misplaced, loaded, unfair. When people use such a loaded word to describe others in this context, they are perhaps not above bigotry themselves.
     
  17. chrisjm18

    chrisjm18 Well-Known Member

    Point taken. I wasn't referring to your religious beliefs. When I used the word "your" I was talking in general.

    Cheers!
     
  18. FTFaculty

    FTFaculty Well-Known Member

    Gotcha. Cheers back to you.
     
  19. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member

    Maintaining a relationship with "God" does not make one a Christian but a deist. Following Christ makes you a Christian. Good Luck!
     
  20. b4cz28

    b4cz28 Active Member


    Just to make it clear GCU is anti gay marriage.

    As well as ACU

    ACU president issues response to NY Times story on homosexuality on campus
     

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