Strange World: Berne, CCWU, etc

One of the things that occured to me was that as things become somewhat mirky some interesting situations arise. Bear mentioned in his guide that the whole foreign school accreditation thing was becoming strange (especially on small islands). It is now possible in theory that a Berne degree will have more utility than a Nationally Acccredited degree due to the fact that certain agencies (eg state & regulatory) agencies have provisions for foreign degrees to be evaluated and accepted on the basis of a recognized F. Credential Evaluation but do not have any provision for accepting Nationally Accredited degrees.
Were CCWU to get UNESCO listing based on a *branch* Malawi campus it may theoretically be in a similar situation.

Although I am pursuing a Nationally Accredited doctorate for my own edification and am therefore not needing to utilize it for anything other than having an accredited doctorate, I am somewhat amused by the above thought. It is becoming a strange world indeed.

North

 

People who obtain, by whatever means, a degree from Berne, CCWU, etc., get exactly what they are paying for, a piece of paper that they will always wonder about. I know I wouldn't hang one on my wall and invite questions.

Wes

 

Wes,

No one is asking you to. Some people might say the same of your schools, regardless of who they are. Oh yes, imperfect knowledge.

Tony

 

But people do it all the time. Look at the number of foreign medical school grads from the Caribbean. Because their degrees are WHO listed and they qualify to take the medical boards they can become and do become medical doctors based on their degrees and external validation. Berne is in a similar position, it is UNESCO listed and has the external validation (Foreign Credential Evaluation) and therefore has some validity. I guess I am becoming somewhat more realistic these days. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As I say what is strange is that the Berne degree may have more utility in some cases than a DETC degree because of issues I started the thread with. Truthfully, some may not wonder about it if it has career utility. No one has pointed out anything deficient in Berne's methology. They operate in a way not unlike Capella & Walden (except for the discounted *accreditation*).

As I say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I would always look at a TESC or Regents (USNY) or COSC with a jaundiced eye from the point of view of someone who graduated from a traditonal Canadian school in the late 80's and sees the whole idea of life experience credit/portfolio credit, CLEP's etc as an academic joke because it misses the didactic and interactional part which I consider essential to an undergraduate education. Nonetheless, these people have RA bachelors degrees that will have utility. I may look at them as less than a *real* college experience/degree but others will not.

North

 

Distance education naturally makes international education into an issue. (So does immigration, economic globilization etc.) And looking at international education makes it painfully clear that there is no existing system in place to maintain standards and to ensure educational equivalence.

It's really no different than American state approval, but in this case the states are nation-states. The point is that while some nation-states enforce excellent standards, some have no standards at all, while still others will grant de-facto exemptions to their standards for reasons of politics, religion or corruption.

What is really interesting in the international case, and in my opinion rather appalling, is the lack of sophistication, and at times total lack of ethics, displayed by some in the higher education world concerning this stuff.

People treat accreditation as if it were just a formal matter, a matter of somehow getting a school's name onto a particular list. If a school can get into the IHU, if it can get a few stupid and incompetent credential evaluators to pass it, then it's "GAAP". It's "accredited". It's "quality".

And that's bull-shit.

What's lost in these attempts to find the international equivalents of Hawaii and Wyoming is the meaning of accreditation itself. The purpose it serves. The reason it exists.

Accreditation is a quality assurance mechanism. It has to be credible in order to serve its purpose. It's a *test*.

And seeking off-shore accreditation-havens that will allow one to exploit the gullibility of those who should know better is cheating on the test.

Suppose that an exam accurately measures a student's knowledge. Now suppose a dishonest student gets a high score by cheating. Must we assume that the cheater also has good knowledge of the subject, simply because he has a high test score?

Or should we keep in mind the purpose and integrity of the examination process?

 

Here's the approach that the International Association of University Presidents is taking to this problem.

http://www.ia-up.org/members/grp5/dvandamme%20-%20memo%20-%20may%202000.doc

 

I am no expert on medical schools but my understanding had been (and I may be wrong) that WHO listing allowed graduates of those schools to take the medical exam. If this is the case the analogy is quite good although not perfect in that although the medical degree will have more utility you still have the following: schools accredited in the West Indies whose graduates have the ability to *validate* their degrees through external means (ie US Medical exams/Foreign Credential Evaluations). Both may mean graduates have the ability to qualify for various state certifications (eg teacher certifications or Medical licence, etc).

Simon, of course Walden & Capella are RA and their status is tied to the RA category. That goes without saying in terms of making a big difference. That is why I refered to Berne's accreditation as *discounted accreditation*. Nonetheless, the methodology is similar. Neither have their own campuses (they rent) like Berne, they do not have their own libraries like Berne, and the course methodology and structuring of residencies is not all that different. I don't know that the quality of coursework is that different. Of course RA degrees will have maximim utility. A Berne degree will have some utility and may also be looked at with less approval. But to be honest many look at Capella & Walden in the same way. I have mentioned many times before that I know two Gen Xer PhD's that both look at Walden & Capella (et al) as if they were mills. One PhD is a Texas A&M grad and looked ill when he discovered such schools existed, the other was a Cornell grad who said seriously "Oh, so you basically buy the degrees. So, will a Capella or Walden grad have an RA degree with utility....yes.....Will some look at it with a jaundiced eye...yes. As I say it is in the eye of the beholder.

Let me restate this again....there is no question an RA degree will have superior utility.

North

 

When my wife and I were interviewing pediatricians for our twins, I immediately disqualified two of them specifically because of where they went to medical school (one in Grenada, the other in Poland). They may have been competent or even great physicians, but that would have nagged at me forever (in case anyone is curious, our pediatrician graduated from the University of Pittsburgh Medical School).

Things like that do matter to many people.


Bruce

 

Overall, I agree with that. There are always exceptions however. For instance, when I stated to some acquaintances (who are in a hiring capacity at a few companies) that I was getting a degree at a lesser known school, I wasn't asked about the accreditation per se, but if I actually attended a campus. After I affirmed I was in a residential program it was seen as valid. Is this the case everywhere? Probably not. I wouldn't be suprised to find more than a few people who still have this outlook though. This is just a limited experience fwiw. Any other experiences with this mindset?

Tony

 

Bruce,

What brought your attention to where they attended school? I doubt many people look at the parchments on the wall. Would it matter to many people? Yeah, it probably would if they noticed it. But it would have more to do with ethnocentrism than knowledge of the schools accreditation.

Tony

 

I absolutely agree Bruce

In fact I remember an Episode of Frazier where the two brothers are arguing and a therapist in their office building gives them sound advice and stops them arguing. The other therapist leaves. Niles observes he graduated from some caribbean island and Frazier says surely that was just undergraduate...they look again...all his degrees are from the caribbean. The two then laugh off his sound advice in terms of "what does he know anyway". So, you are correct that perception will play a part with foreign degrees. In many ways we (not saying you) are somewhat zenophobic or myopic in terms of what we regard as acceptable. We know or think we know American/Western European/Canadian/Australian standards and favor those areas. I have to be honest, if my surgeon graduated from Mexico I might be skiddish as well. Part of that is perception. My grandmother (English) felt if it was not English/Church of England etc. then it was peculiar. I am going to wander off topic here but that attitude is why Evangelical Churches are looked at as cults by the French for example who have police monitoring garden variety Evangelical Baptist churches and threatening to arrest them for mind control etc. Foreign is peculiar.

As I say I do not blame you because I would be nervous if my surgeon were to have a degree from Mexico, the caribbean, the former Soviet Union, etc. It is not necessarily right but I have to acknowledge that it is less fact filled and more emotional perception.


North

 

True Tony. This is what those two PhD's were reacting to with the idea of RA DL (even partial) PhD programs. They could have cared less the schools were Regionally Accredited. To them the concept smacked of *mill*.

North

 

Re: Re: Strange World: Berne, CCWU, etc

I think your negativity is less fact based than emotionally based. What is quality? I may not consider the portfolio/CLEP/life experience credit method used by some RA undergrad schools quality (the big three). When I first came to the states I thought it was a hoax. This sort of thing in the US system may be why as I understand it a US student needs first year college to get into an Australian university and why on one British education site (which I can't remember) a Canadian 3 year BA was considered as equivalent to a US 4 year BA.

These quality issues are very difficult internationally. We step outside of the US and in some areas we may not be perceived as high quality (other than from obvious choices like Harvard, MIT). Yet, we (USA) are world leaders in most fields.

North

 

North: I am no expert on medical schools but my understanding had been (and I may be wrong) that WHO listing allowed graduates of those schools to take the medical exam. If this is the case the analogy is quite good although not perfect in that although the medical degree will have more utility you still have the following: schools accredited in the West Indies whose graduates have the ability to *validate* their degrees through external means (ie US Medical exams/Foreign Credential Evaluations). Both may mean graduates have the ability to qualify for various state certifications (eg teacher certifications or Medical licence, etc).

Response: The comparison is far from perfect North because the credibility, acceptability and recognition of the medical schools is in a totally different category than the school you mentioned.


North: Simon, of course Walden & Capella are RA and their status is tied to the RA category. That goes without saying in terms of making a big difference. That is why I refered to Berne's accreditation as *discounted accreditation*. Nonetheless, the methodology is similar. Neither have their own campuses (they rent) like Berne, they do not have their own libraries like Berne, and the course methodology and structuring of residencies is not all that different. I don't know that the quality of coursework is that different.

Response: Well North, that does not go without saying. You are attempting to rationalize the credibility of questionable schools in your comparisons and examples but then deny that you are attempting to do so.

Your comparison of the similarity of methodology, lack of campuses, libraries, structuring of residencies and the quality of the coureswork of these schools appears to be an indirect way of your stating that there is no difference between RA and unacredited schools.

North: Of course RA degrees will have maximim utility.

Response: Of course? Are you sure?

North: A Berne degree will have some utility and may also be looked at with less approval. But to be honest many look at Capella & Walden in the same way.

Response: This is where meta-talk comes into play. Mr. North, there is absolutely no level of comarison in the viability and standards of the RA schools you note versus your Caribbean school.

When you engage in such comparisons you are totally disregarding the impact that regional accreditation standards and criteria have on the level of substrance and quality on the coursework, program methodology, library services as well as the residencies of Capella and Walden. In effect, these schools are held accountable for conforming to normative standards of quality that unaccredited school do not have to abide by. The gap is enormous and not comparable regardless of your attempts to prove your position.

In addition,when anyone tells me "But to be honest" my ears perk up. When you add that "many look at Capellla & Walden in the same way", you now have to substantiate this comment with suppotive data. What is your source that supports your statement that many feel the same way towards these two schools?

North: I have mentioned many times before that I know two Gen Xer PhD's that both look at Walden & Capella (et al) as if they were mills. One PhD is a Texas A&M grad and looked ill when he discovered such schools existed, the other was a Cornell grad who said seriously "Oh, so you basically buy the degrees. So, will a Capella or Walden grad have an RA degree with utility....yes.....Will some look at it with a jaundiced eye...yes. As I say it is in the eye of the beholder.

Response: This is not "many' but your vignettes that you are employing to support your actual position which is against regional accredited DL schools.

North: Let me restate this again....there is no question an RA degree will have superior utility.

Response: Mr. North I would suggest that you have a trusted confident read this posting and provide you with feedback as to your real position, which is quite transparent.

You have every right to feel any way you wish but your statements would have a great deal more credibility if you stated your position forthrightly rather than in this indirect and inconsistent manner.

 

I actually didn't look for or even notice diplomas on the wall, since we all know that diplomas themselves are meaningless. I checked them out through the Massachusetts Board of Registration in Medicine, which has a physician profile search page. It lists where the person went to medical school, did their residency, the status of their license, and any malpractice/disciplinary action.

My decision to disqualify the pedatricians from Grenada and Poland had nothing to do with ethnocentrism, and everything to do with the horrible USMLE pass rates for non-US/UK/Canuck/Oz/Israeli medical school graduates that are listed in BG14.


Bruce

 

All RA Schools Are Not Created Equal

Simon and North appear to being arguing the issue from different frameworks. I'm not taking sides on this one. I would say this though: If regional accreditation provided some uniform quality standards, then why do some RA doctoral programs readily accept students with degrees from some masters program (and in spite of glaring similarities in the background of the students) reject others? Simon, while I agree that regional accreditation SHOULD represent standards for quality control, even the member schools often question quality in distance learning institutions. Maybe the quality standards aren't so "uniform" after all.

 

Re: All RA Schools Are Not Created Equal

 

Simon, I apologize if I have stepped on your toes (I do not recall if you are a Capella or Walden grad).

Nonetheless, your are completely missing my point. Maybe it is just not translating well and I apologize and will try again. I have never questioned that maximum utility can be obtained from an RA degree (review all my posts). I am not attending Berne. I am simply making a factual statement with regard to utility. The Foreign Credential Evaluation means like it or not, emotion tied to hating Berne with irrational hatred or not, it will have utility for some and in some cases that may exceed that of Nationally Accredited programs.

Would I recommend Berne over RA..............NO. Would I recommend Berne over Nationally Accredited..........in most cases............NO. Would I recommend it over other foreign options (ie UNIZUL, UNISA, AUS, GB)............No. Would I recommend it over unaccredited US programs ............Yes.

I cannot speak to the quality of Berne's programs. Maybe you can. They appear to use the same methodology as Capella & Walden. Berne uses faculty with accredited degrees, etc. Maybe you can provide a detailed criticsim of the course content and methodology of Berne. That would be helpful.

I am a supporter of RA but not enough to hold it up as the Holy Grail. In the USA it is the only way to go for maximum utility with some room for Nationally Accredited programs. It is not necessarily max qualitatively. As I say I don't like the fact that people get RA BA's with life experience & portfolio credit. I feel that people with undergraduate degrees are from Canada, AU & GB are generally better prepared academically (just my opinion). Nonetheless, RA in the US is the best standard available.

If it were up to me I would do away with CLEP & Life experience credit. I would also make accreditation the function of State Regulatory Agencies. They have proven in general to be very effective in other areas of regulation and more affordable than private sector.

North

 

Sorry if you misunderstood me Bruce. What I meant was that most people do not have the knowledge of USMLE pass rates and/or would not even think of checking up on something like that. I did not intend to infer your decision was based on ethnocentrism, but that for most people who made the same decision, that would likely be the reason.

Tony