Shaheed Zulfikar Ali Bhutto Institute of Science and Technology?

Shaheed Zulfikar Ali Bhutto Institute of Science and Technology

Shaheed Zulfikar Ali Bhutto Institute of Science and Technology (SZABIST, Karachi)

A coworker seen this school advertising on LinkedIn.
Is this school recognized - degrees considered accredited like an RA degree ?

Thanks

 

I really don't know anything about universities in Pakistan but it's #32 on this list

Top Universities in Pakistan | 2016 Reviews & Rankings

 

Preston University is 72. Sugar mill's power.

 

Long article here about the man it's named for. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulfikar_Ali_Bhutto - former Prime minister of Pakistan, hanged after what a former US Attorney General called "a mock trial in a kangaroo court."
"Shaheed" (before his name) is a word sometimes translated as "martyr" - although there is some disagreement. An explanation of the particular meaning in Pakistan is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahid#Shaheed_of_Pakistan

This is a legit Pakistani school - but your mileage may vary. At least, I've noticed here in Canada that Pakistani degrees don't seem to "travel" as well as Indian ones. Indian degrees from known schools seem to do quite well here - but I've met holders of legit degrees from Pakistan who were unable to get full recognition - or sometimes any recognition for those degrees here.

J.

 

A lot of it depends upon who is doing the recognition and what sort of demand exists.

I have plenty of applicants from Pakistan with degrees in engineering. Many of them have checkered US job histories indicating that their degrees didn't travel well either. Yet, my new doctor and his wife both attended med school in Pakistan and they seem to be doing fine.

The nice thing for doctors is that they have a clear pathway to recognition and pretty much a pass/fail measure for how they are received. Did you get a license to practice medicine? If not, fail. Other professions don't have such a binary experience.

That said, many foreign engineering degrees from non-first world countries don't land as easily as first world engineering degrees in the US. But the holders of those degrees also tend to be willing to either further their educations and bolster their resumes with US masters degrees or start out in lower positions and work their way up.

One applicant started with another company as a welder despite the fact that he had a D.Sc. In engineering. Went out, got a welding certificate and worked his butt off, then launched into an engineering tech job and finally into an engineering job (all at a rival company). Took him five years to get to a position equivalent to where he likely was his first year out of school in Pakistan. But damned if he didn't want it bad enough. Now his resume is pretty well Americanized with two respectable employers as an engineer.

There's a lot that goes into this sort of thing. Degree is only part of it. Language and cultural barriers play heavily. And a lot of employers don't know if they can trust foreign experience let alone degrees.

But it's a real shame to see someone so educated being given such a run around because people can't pronounce the name of his alma mater.

 

Yes - the degree is often only part of it. But (at least in Canada) people being given a runaround because others can't pronounce the name of their alma mater -- No, that's not the major issue - if it's an issue at all. It certainly shouldn't be. I think a person who gives any applicant that type of runaround should be (and likely will be) fired. I imagine part of the problem could be the standards for Bachelor's degrees in Pakistan. A "pass" Bachelor's is two years of study. That's not equivalent to a bachelor's anywhere else. Yes, I reaize also that Pakistan is working to change strictly to the 3 or 4 year "Honours Bachelor's" degree standard - but that's not an overnight thing. Another problem is the very real state of corruption in Pakistan -- and Higher education is one of the really bad areas. I just Googled the subject and got enough distressing reading to last me all day.

I've also read accounts (from Pakistan) of very weird stuff -- like a science (forget which science) professor at an HEC-approved school in Pakistan, who was advocating a through "Qur'anization" of his school's science curriculum. Basically, his view was that "it is known" that the Qur'an contains all knowledge - known and unknown - so it should be the major source of scientific teaching. According to this professor, all such teaching should be done with specific Qur'anic reference. It's increasingly hard to trust an education system when you read stuff like this. It's almost incredible to me, after quite a bit of reading on the subject, that so much controversy and baggage can exist in the higher education system of a country of over 180 million people.

I think there are likely a few legit reasons (beyond the general ignorance of its institutions mentioned by you) why many Pakistani degrees don't "travel" as well as Indian ones, here. And yes, well-motivated people can and often do improve their situations by hard work, certification etc. We've all seen those who don't, as well. Everybody's in charge of their own reward. Those that come from hard work take a while. The rewards of not working hard? You can have them right now....

J.

 

But that's something that a typical private employer might not even pay attention to. While I have requested WES evaluations I often don't particularly when there is a verifiable work history. Degree evaluations are time consuming and don't typically offer the employer very much value. It's a "thumbs up" or "thumbs down" situation, often couched with nuance because I think degree evaluators don't want to get sued any more than they already do. Even my own WES evaluation was careful to not label my MSM from a DEAC accredited school as total crap. They clearly have a position but they made it known that it was only their opinion and my degree is, in fact, accredited.

For higher ed, a course by course evaluation can be useful in an admission decision. For private sector employment a lot of these minor differences simply don't matter. OK, in engineering the difference between a "two year bachelor" and a four year degree might be useful info. But when you start getting into business degrees, degrees in humanities and things like CS, Math etc, it matters a lot less.

Yeah, good thing we'd never see anything like that in the U.S.

I once interviewed a woman years ago for a production job. Her resume broke my heart. She had a bachelor's degree in aeronautical engineering from an Eastern Bloc university. Then she went on to design aircraft. Her first job in the U.S.? Rewinding tapes at a video store. From there she went on to a series of crappy, low skilled production jobs. Years later I met an engineering manager with a degree from another Eastern Bloc university. He came here and immediately got picked up by the government and spent the better part of his career moving upward to bigger and better assignments. They are roughly the same age. Both degrees came from public universities which still exist today. They left the Eastern Bloc at roughly the same time. One rewound tapes and one continued in engineering.

We can only speculate as to what happened. Was it legitimate reasoning for both? Maybe he found the job and then came to the U.S. Maybe she came here illegally and had to fly under the radar. Maybe he was a better engineer. Maybe his electrical engineering training was more transferable than her aeronautical engineering training (for reasons that Bruce highlighted in another thread about Russian engineering). Maybe he spoke English upon arrival and she didn't. Maybe he just straight up hustled until he got a job as an engineer and didn't sleep until he landed a job in his field and she just gave up. In fairness, she was applying for a factory job. Maybe if she applied for engineering tech jobs she could have rebounded that career.

Maybe the causes were less legitimate. Maybe a female aeronautical engineer was less of a novelty in 1970's Eastern Europe than it was in 1970's New York.

But I also think that the less infrastructure a country has the more dire the circumstances of some of its immigrants. If you are a college educated professional in India bouncing to the U.S. or Canada might not be so difficult. Globalized economy and all. It's possible that the company you work for in Delhi has U.S. offices. Or that your Delhi based IT company is owned by the same Japanese soy sauce manufacturer as a software development company in Tampa and there is some room for international movement. Pakistan, despite its proximity to India, seems to be in a much more precarious position in terms of basic infrastructure. It's quite possible that you come to Canada/U.S. from Pakistan because you are fleeing sectarian violence. From India it might be possible but it is far less probable.

So it makes me wonder if it has more to do with how well the individual is able to prepare for the move versus having to pick up with nothing and land without a parachute than with how we necessarily "accept" a degree.

But I don't think even progressive Canada is completely free from Islamophobia (which includes the fear of people perceived to be Muslim even if they aren't) invading hiring practices. You guys might have it better than we do here but, historically, blanket non-recognition of a nation's degrees tends to follow prejudice more than thoughtful comparison of the curriculum.

 

Maybe we do "have it better.". Maybe we make it better. E.G. we have recently re-settled over 25,000 Syrian refugees in Canada. How many did the US take? Answer here:
Explainer: What You Should Know About The Syrian Refugee Controversy | Acton PowerBlog

Well, maybe a little more often than "never." A few years back, an accredited school in Texas wanted to add a Master's program in "Creation Science." Texas higher-ed authorities would not permit it, as it "wasn't science." We have an old thread somewhere about it. Amazing proportion of Americans believe in that "young earth" stuff. Here's a sample:

"Bishop ... found that 39% agreed “God created the universe, the earth, the sun, moon, stars, plants, animals, and the first two people within the past 10,000 years..." Here's the whole thing.

http://ncse.com/blog/2013/11/just-how-many-young-earth-creationists-are-there-us-0015164

J.

 

I wonder how many science teachers are part of that 39% - the "young earth" creationists? :smile:

J.

 

I agree, but many of these schools such as Azteca, Central Nicaragua, etc seem to do well in Europe and the USA mainly because most people getting doctorates from them just need the degree to either get a salary boost (e.g. college teacher, government employee) or as an ego booster so they can legally use it to call themselves Dr.

Linked in is full of resumes of people with degrees from great American schools that top it up with Azteca, Central Nicaragua, Indian Board, Open International from Sri Lanka, etc mainly because they need the ego boost of putting the "Dr" title on top the resume but at the same time with a degree that at least passes the American equivalent test.

I know plenty of psycho therapists in Canada that get PhDs from places in India, Sri Lanka or similar cheap schools in Asia so they can use PhD in their business cards. There is no need to have a PhD to be a psycho therapist and many times just a PhD from any school would work as long as the school is legal to be a member of a psycho therapy association.


There is also a huge market for alternative medicine practitioners, in Canada most private schools in AM are quite expensive so the pakistanian school might be a good option for those looking to practice AM. In addition, most AM schools in Canada only grant diplomas while foreign schools grant fancy designations such as PhD in Quantum Medicine, MD in AM, etc.


There is use for these degrees but I agree that it doesn't make sense for professions that need to impress employers to get hired for a first job such as engineering, computer science, etc.

In general, they are good for some self employed careers and for people looking for salary and ego boots.

 

First of all, wasn't Neuhaus talking about "real" engineering degrees - basic professional qualifications, rather than add-on doctorates to impress people?

Second, Counsellors/psychotherapists in Canada need "real" graduate degrees (not necessarily doctorates) if they are to be certified by their professional association. If a US degree, it must be RA. If overseas, it must pass muster with the proper evaluation agencies. It says so here: https://www.ccpa-accp.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/CertificationGuide_EN.pdf

If anyone wants to deal with a mere "member" as opposed to someone certified -- so be it. It's your life.

Third, all those "add-on doctorates" you mention are not nearly the same. They run the entire gamut. At the top end, Universidad Central de Nicaragua is a "real" school and I've heard from:

(a) UCN doctorate-holders who have had acceptance of their degrees in the US.
(b) DI members in Nicaragua who vouch for UCN as a "real" school.

At the lower end, Open International University of Complementary Medicine (Sri Lanka) has been called the "world's biggest degree mill" in an article below. The "school" is not recognized by the UGC in Sri Lanka and has also advertised "knighthoods" and "Albert Schweitzer Prizes" for sale. Here are a couple of articles. there are lots more - including stories of people getting into trouble with these "degrees."

Sri Lankan Doctorates For Sale in B'lore - The New Indian Express

Asian Degree Mills

It distresses me to learn that we may have Canadians in the helping professions with the vanity and gall to use completely milled doctorates to advance their status. If somebody thinks that's an OK alternative for anyone in those professions to act-- well, that's depressing, too. Think I might need a counsellor/psychotherapist for my depression. Better get a certified one, I guess - with proper degrees.

J.

 

I agree, the point that I was trying to make is that third world country degrees have utility. A real pakistanian Masters degree in Counseling could be used for admission if evaluated as equivalent to a Canadian degree.

I know plenty counselors with degrees from Russia, Mexico, etc so a Pakistanian degree could do the job.

 

BTW - one of the interesting cases of professionals getting into trouble with milled add-on doctorates was cited in DI (I'm pretty sure) quite a few years ago - can't put my finger on it right now. It concerned a group of (genuine) US chiropractors, who got into severe Heißwasser (If I may again, for the 81st time, borrow Dr. Bear's excellent term) with their professional association for sporting OIUCM PhD's on their business cards etc. IIRC, a very dim view was taken.

 

I agree, but quite few therapists out there have a PhD from Open International. Just do a search of the internet and you will find several Canadian therapists with this degree.

Bottom line is that there is nothing that prevents you in Canada from using a degree mill in your business card in most provinces. You can be a certified counselor or psycho therapist and get an unaccredited degree from a bogus school and use it your business card. If you don't like Open University, then you can get one from University of Sedona, Metaphysics U, etc and nobody can sue you because you put in your business card "John Doe PhD Certified Canadian Counselor". (Assuming that your CCC certification is real)

However, there are people that do get real PhDs but from universities from third world countries so they can qualify as clinical psychologist or other self employed professions.

I did not notice that Open International was unaccredited so I put it in the same basket and University of Central Nicaragua so this was my mistake.

As for engineering, South African Engineering degrees are accepted in Canada. Parkistanian degrees can be used in Canada for licensing purposes but my guess is that most people would use it to access a masters degree in engineering.

Bottom line is that Pakistanian degrees have utility if they come from accredited schools.

 

Might well be so, depending on a professional degree evaluation. I'm assuming all the degrees, including any from Pakistan are from "real" schools. And yes, the degrees (from proper schools in Pakistan) have utility. However It seems some of them, not all, may have less utility than might be expected of similar degrees from other countries, e.g. neighbouring India.

J.

 

I wasn't trying to attack Canada and I certainly wasn't trying to say that the U.S. is handling things better. But after 10 years of Harper I think you need to give it more than a few months of dreamy Justin handing out winter coats before you can act like it is the norm up there.

you evidently missed the embedded link in my statement which linked to Liberty University's Department of Creationism "Science" where a handful of biology and other natural science PhDs were willing to crap on science in exchange for tenure track positions in fiction.

 

I'm an engineer and worked with people with degrees from Irak, Iran, Pakistan and most Islamic countries. Let's face it, engineering is not dominated by your typical white Canadian but most engineers come from Asia so being from Pakistan and working in Engineering is not unusual but more the norm in Canada. If the Pakistanian was going to move into government jobs, marketing, arts or other profession where white christian majority are the norm then I could see the problem.
Engineering jobs are more color and race blind that your typical job, you want a guy that can do the job regardless of race or credo.
I particularly belong to an interfaith church so I have no problems with any religion but must recognize there there is still some bias against Muslims in Canada but I don't think it affects much if you work in engineering.

 

I cannot speak to your experience. But I think it's a bit odd to claim that most engineers in the US and Canada are from the places you mention. There are plenty to be sure. But there are also plenty of US and Canadian born engineers with degrees from the many US universities cranking out graduates every year. Foreign born/trained engineers are well represented but they are by no means the majority. engineering is also not an industry that we can accurately trend. Engineers cross into virtually every industry from manufacturing to healthcare.

Many employers are quite progressive. But not all hiring managers are. I'm not talking about blatant racism but latent biases that subconsciously guide business decisions. Sometimes it's blatant and malicious. Most times it's simply a hiring manager passing over a foreign born candidate citing issues with "communication" or not believing there is an "organizational fit."

But I suppose you're now going to claim that there exist no racist engineering managers in Canada. That's a fine opinion but unless you have some source to back it up I think it is a bit of a stretch.

 

I cannot speak about the US. Yes, in the few places that I worked in Canada (Bell, Nortel, Corel) most people working in engineering had Canadian degrees but they were originally from Asia or canadian born but their parents were from India, China, Pakistan, etc.

Just go to any well known engineering faculty in Canada and count how many Asian (race or nationality) are there.

I really have no time to start looking for articles that back up the obvious but my many years in engineering school and working experience tell them that this is the case.

Again, I don't want to turn this into a race issue but the fact is that a Pakistanian degree would not look odd at all in an engineering resume in Canada.

 

I have no knowledge of engineering etc but Pakistan, India, China are all nuclear nations. My guess there have to be some serious know how in these countries. Apparently many of the engineering projects in China are just out of this world. Isn't also in that part of the world at the younger ages children are doing better in the STEMs than in N.A?