A veiled threat and a nasty message from Columbia Commonwealth

The Veiled Threat
Dr. Les Carr, President of Columbia Commonwealth University, is very unhappy that my publisher's degree.net site put up the information that CCWU (as he calls it) has a Mail Boxes Etc. address in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. I explained to Dr. Carr that I have nothing whatever to do with ownership or content of Degree.net, but I would ask the people in charge to point out that there is no mail delivery in Jackson Hole and that CCWU does have an office there.

Presumably the change was not made quickly enough, or satisfactorily enough, because today came this from Dr. Carr:

"Please John. I do not wish to be pushed into the position of having act based on the anger of a growing number of individuals. Please
take me seriously on this matter."

[The Nasty Insult from the Dean

As a kindness, I recommended to Dr. Carr that their website might mention that there is no mail delivery in Jackson Hole, hence the use of the convenience address. He apparently thought that was a good enough idea to pass along to his Dean, Dr. Naomi Lichtenberg, of whom Dr. Carr writes, "Her credentials are first rate and she is the official Acreditation Liason [sic] Officer (required by NC accred. assoc. if an institution wishes to apply for accreditation-candidacy).

Dr. Lichtenberg's charming response is as follows:

"I refuse to pander to John Bear! I will not put a defensive statement like that on the website... John Bear has his head up his ass if he isn't aware of the fact that lots of respectable schools have PO boxes for addresses...

If she communicates this way with the people of North Central, I guess their accreditation success will be assured.

Incidentally, while I am aware that some legitimate schools use P.O. boxes for some mail, I am not aware of any that use a Mail Boxes Etc. address, which is what CCWU is using.

 

I find it interesting that after all the CPU/CCWU shenanigans, these folks feel anger but not shame.

 

Dr. Litchenberg's response should be an embarassment to CCWU. What a nasty and obviously ridiculous response to your suggestion. This school is becoming its own worst enemy. Her credentials may or may not be first rate (I don't know) but her histrionic response & potty mouth may not impress the N. Central. I can see it now at the site visit when they do their exit and make suggestions as she tells them they have their head deep in fecal matter.

North

 

The latest version of the ccwu.edu site lists both mailing and physical addresses in Jackson WY. That suggests some questions:

Like what precisely would a visitor find at the physical address at 2090 B Corner Creek Lane in Jackson? What university functions are housed in that address? How large a staff works there?

And how is it that an *entire university* can meander from state to state, occupying a succession of addresses? Are there dozens or even hundreds of nomadic clerical, academic and administrative staff pitching temporary tent camps wherever Carr's demons take him? Maybe that Nevada Indian tribe taught them something...

 

Dr. Naomi has excellent interpersonal communication skills. I'm sure CC is proud of such professionalism.

 

Two observations;

1) Exactly how is Dr. Carr going to act? The truth is an absolute defense against libel and slander.

2) I can't believe that an Academic Dean (Dr. Lichtenberg) would make such a juvenile and asinine statement. She does have first-rate credentials according to the CCWU website (B.A. University of Wisconsin <Phi Beta Kappa>, M.A. Columbia University, Ph.D. Indiana University <Mellon Fellow>). That doesn't mitigate the fact that she insulted and ridiculed the one person who is probably in the best position to give her school credibility. Besides being in poor taste, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


Bruce

 

I guess this all begs the question, 'Is CCWU classified as a pure 'virtual university' or a traditional bricks-and-mortar university delivering distance education?' If it's the former, then what is the issue? How large are the facilities that support Jones International? Does size matter?

Obviously there are no easy answers to these questions, but CCWU needs to demonstrate that it has support facilities and quality assurance processes commensurate with the level of programs it delivers. And it looks like Malawi think they are pretty hot, right?

Cheers,

George

 

Columbia Commonwealth, as much as they'd like to distance themselves from it, carries the embarrassing legacy of being drummed out of California (as Columbia Pacific) the Native American "accreditation" scam, and already, in less than 2 years, having moved from California to Montana to Wyoming.

Of course Carr is quick to point out that there is NO RELATIONSHIP WHATSOEVER between CCU and CPU... except that Carr operates or operated both, they're still doing some sort of deal for former CPU students to get CCU degrees, and things like that.

When, oh when, will these schools EVER learn that by making a stink over stupid little stuff like this, they do far, far more damage to themselves than if they'd simply ignored the whole issue?

The wonderful quote from Dr. Lichtenberg is certain to find its way into the annals of history on this program, and their latest round of threatening emails do nothing but paint them further into a corner.

Like MIGS, it seems that some people never learn, and simply get more brazen over time.

 

I think that the answer to that is obvious, even though CCWU talks about having a "campus" in Malawi.

Yes, and so does institutional stability.

CCWU claims to be a university. It claims to be accredited. It claims to be fully the equal of other American and Commonwealth universities. It offers Ph.D.s and therefore presumably hosts research. It claims to offer residential programs half the world away.

That's gonna require some infrastructure. It's gonna need administrators. It's gonna need planning. It's gonna need finance people, personnel people, legal people, records people, IT people, admissions people, mailroom people (and no, not just a Mailboxes, Etc. store) and many more. Plus a considerable clerical staff to back it up.

Everytime a "university" pulls up its roots and moves, its gonna uproot a whole host of staff who will be told to sell their homes, pull their kids out of school and get out the moving vans. That's true even if the students and most of the faculty are geographically distant.

If a "virtual" university can be so intangible that it has virtually no physical presence anyplace, if it can exist 'everywhere and nowhere' and choose its public "physical" address merely for legal convenience and tax advantage, and site that address in a secretarial service or something, then I think that we have produced an *excellent* argument in defense of WASC and the other accreditors that resist accrediting 100% DL "universities".

There's gotta be some *there* there. There must be some institutional solidity. A "university" can't simply exist as a plaything of one man and be moved around the map on a whim. It has to be more than a vapor or a mirage.

This same criticism applies to Greenwich University as well. I think that we can be sure that virtually nobody in Hilo sold their American homes, uprooted their families and moved to Norfolk Island. All that crossed the sea was the address of convenience and the accompanying legal registration.

Real universities don't operate that way.

 

And to MIGS. I used that very term, "There's no 'there' there" in describing them to John. At first, it was all proposed. But nothing ever came of it. As Bill notes, no staff, no facilities, no nothing. Just someone answering the phones, a guy who talked to you about admissions (when he wasn't selling other products to other people on other lines), and a self-admitted DL neophyte running the "academic" programs. When nothing grew, I left.

Even California Coast University and California Pacific University have offices, staffs, etc.

 

With all due respect Bill, how do you know? Has anyone on this NG done a site visit? I am in no way defending CCWU, but merely playing devil's advocate here.

Yes, I agree, moving around like this does nothing to help stability one bit.

I agree with you 100% Bill, *however* take a look at these criteria which must be satisfied in order to become an Australian university:

http://education.qld.gov.au/strategic/accreditation/university/operating-as-uni.html#nationalcriteria

Without an independent review being undertaken to ensure these criteria are met, don't you think many 'virtual universities', prima facie, could meet these? We all know Greenwich didn't pass muster, but was it due to them not having a big enough campus? No. Was it because it did not have authority, by law, to grant degrees? No. Was it due to them not having enough qualified staff? No. I need to go back to the final report to precis the summary of findings, but one comment off the top of my head was the quality of the PhD theses. What are the quality of theses produced by CCWU graduates?

The point I am making is that the 'virtual' university has certainly put the cat among the pigeons with regard to what constitutes a 'real' university.

Cheers,

George

 

Bill Dayson asks what one finds on visiting the actual street address of CCWU. I asked someone I know in Jackson Hole* to stop by. He did on two occasions during the workday and found no one there. I asked Dr. Carr about that, and he replied that their Dean there prefers to operate in more of a "European" manner and probably can be found conducting business at a nearby coffee house.

I reminded Dr. Carr of his earlier remark that CCWU was 'bursting at the seams' and would be looking for larger office space soon, wondering how that jibed with this apparently-one-person office -- or do they all repair to the coffee houses at the same time? No response yet.
__________________
* I note the "Hole" of Jackson Hole seems to have been dropped. But that seems common for Jackson (Hole) businesses.

 

Where should their desks be?

Today I worked with students in Perth [4000 km], Brisbane [2000 km] and Vancouver. My support staff were all their desks and although i know where they live I have no idea where they were, and I am sure not going to spend my money on their environment - paying them hurts enough!. Tomorrow I am going to our weekend home and no one will know.

Obviously you guys are either not in the 21st Century, or you are and have your heads up your arses.

Greenwich was knocked back as their theses were equated to a Australian Year 12 essay, and fuzzy dislcpline areas - not because of any reaosn of locality.

Now Dr Walsh of Brannagh, I am not necessarily supporting this view because i have quoted it!

If faculty are allowed by some of you to be 'somewhere else' so can any other staff. You don't carry bricks and mortar principles into a virtual environment.

George, please INSIST that all your staff work at their desks in your buildings from now on or the devil will get you.

Peter French

 

I beleive the research and findings in the area are unanimous. For a high school graduate to pursue an undergraduate degree totally online/by distance would be *severley* detrimental to their aquisition of the following academic and vocational attributes:

*An understanding of a systematic and coherent body of knowledge and its underlying principles and concepts;
*Communication and problem solving skills;
*The ability to undertake research, analyse information and apply knowledge and techniques learnt within an academic or professional context;
* Skills for self-directed and lifelong learning; and
*Interpersonal and teamwork skills appropriate to employment and/or further study.

Source: AQF Bachelor Degree - Characteristics of Learning Outcomes

Most importantly, the final attribute, re-interpersonal and teamwork skills, is particularly relevant.

Can these be emulated/ taught in an online/ distance environment? Can they be mastered and built upon at the post-graduate level? Mmmm, so many questions, so few answers. Can I feel a PhD question coming on?

Cheers,

George

 

Re: Where should their desks be?

So you are arguing that it is possible to operate a university that is the equal of any in Australia with a staff of one person who is never in his office?

That presumes that they were able to find it. Where *is* Greenwich, exactly? I'm not asking where its enabling legislation was passed, nor where its mailing address is. I want to know where its university functions are performed. Answering "cyberspace" is dangerously close to answering "nowhere".

Do Australian university standards take any interest in things like university finance, personnel policies, student support services, course planning and delivery, institutional governance, internal quality controls, admissions practices, record keeping and so on? If they do take an interest in these things, do they simply accept a glossy written submission, or do they want to see anything tangible?

I mean that Earlscroft University could send a set of e-documents so incredibly wonderful that every Aussie would be reduced to tears.

I am not arguing that universities with distributed functions are impossible. But I am arguing that those functions do have to be performed somewhere, and that those charged with the oversight of higher education will have to find some way to make these arrangements transparent before accreditation can have any credibility and meaning in a purely "virtual" case.

Seting up a "physical address" in a tiny office with a staff of one person who is never in, and moving that office from jurisdiction to jurisdiction in search of the most lax regulatory environment is as close to lying as you can get. It's *not* a physical address, and your own argument implicitly recognizes that.

In arguing this point, I find myself seeing more and more virtue in the skepticism shown by most of the regional accreditors towards 100% DL universities, at least until some way to guarantee their transparency and to efficiently audit them is developed.

North Central has accredited Jones International, but I don't think that there is any question where to find it and where its functions are performed. Procedures and staff are present and can be examined. But if Jones International were just a PO box, and we were assured that all of its functions were performed ...somewhere else... then it should be denied accreditation. At least until some new and effective methods to ensure credibility and to protect against fraud and abuse are invented.

The word 'accreditation' *means* to verify credibility.

 

It's unfortunate to take cheap shots at a small start-up university because it doesn't have an impressive physical presence. I think it's acceptable for a new DL university to have a small administrative office with a staff of one. I agree that such a university needs to be able to demonstrate the quality and robustness of its academic processes (e.g. course materials, tutoring, assessment). But I don't think that an impressive office is required. It's fun to tease the people who are trying to establish these new universities. But most of us on this board are pusillanimous gadflies who sit behind our keyboards and freely pontificate despite our ignorance.


Gert Potgieter
Pusillanimous and Ignorant Gadfly

 

Re: Re: Where should their desks be?

And that means that the procedures, records etc must not only be subscribed to, but adhered to. We are bound by a very tight set of rules, not being a university, but delivering nationally accredited training to AQF 6 level, and possibly Graduate Certificates fairly soon. We are subject to annual reregistration and audit. We have an address, a CEO who makes a sworn statement of compliance, yours truly who is responsible for overseeing courses, students/trainees and qualified staff who all have at least a masters degree and accredited teacher training. When an audit is scheduled we have all records at that address. If it is an interstate audit, as we operate virtually nationally, we go to that State with our records. Our students are interviewd and we are still in bsuiness and growing at a very fast rate.

And if you want to contact us - choose between a mobile phone and a P O Box.

Where is the problem? The quality is in the delivery and outcomes, not the fact that I crap in a $10,000 crapper adjoining my office suite and have a servant wipe my bum.

 

So DE is deficient? Maybe the provider is deficient...

Dear George,

What findings are unanimous?

Where is the deficiency in a High School student doing an undergraduate by DE? So you rule out straight DE, DE in a workplace environment, and what else? So yuo wouldn't [or couldn't] arrange to totally deliver your courses into say the Hilton at Darwin?

I did accounting and engineering DE for 10 years and worked at the same time in what I was studying, and although it was tough, had many advantages.

I fully support anyone doing the same thing and in some case recommend it.

So what are you really saying, and where is the research?

Peter

 

First of all, I wish Columbia Commonwealth University well in there endeavors at legitimacy. The more the merrier.

For my undergrad degrees in arts and commerce, I attended a 20,000 to 30,000 student university. I had some 300 to 400 student classes. Exactly what interaction with the professor did I have?

I had several courses taught by grad students. Quality of instruction?

There were Mickey Mouse (apologies to Disney) science courses for arts students and English courses for Engineers.

Did I get a good education. I believe so. Would I have got a similar education from a distance school. Sure.

 

Does this newfound benevolence extend to all questionable and unrecognized "universities" out there, including the mills? If so, *that's* unfortunate. If not, how are you distinguishing the ones you like from the ones you don't?

1. There has to be sufficient staff and infrastructure to carry out the university's stated mission. A one man office and a Mail Boxes Etc. raise obvious questions when a university offers multiple doctoral programs.

2. Those functions have to be such that they can be located and examined. The idea of "virtual" universities located everywhere and nowhere raises obvious problems for everyone from students contemplating enrolling to the regulators and accreditors tasked with overseeing it. The problems probably aren't insoluble, but denying them won't make them go away.

3. A "physical address" isn't a shell game. It can't be merely a convenience address that can be moved around the map at will. (At least without raising credibility questions.) If the school isn't there, don't suggest that it is.

Perhaps. But we are "pusillanimous gadflies" who have expressed our opinions on hundreds of questionable universities before this.

What is it about CCWU and/or Greenwich that earns them an exemption from the same kind of questions that Degreeinfo directs at other schools that do similar things?