Thesis only:Who finishes?

Why do some successfully finish the distance only thesis or dissertation degree while others do not? Is it more favorable circumstances as familial support, or financial security, or supervisor's guidance? Is it personal characteristics as interest in the subject, or commitment, or maturity? What is most contributory to success? Can several adverse conditions be overcome by other sustaining ones?

 

I think a lot has to do with the individual, but as well there is the personal interest and circumstances. For many who work full or part time while working towards a higher degree, the constraints on their time is increadible. I don't see that the advisors should necessarily be someone to encourage the individual to continue with their research.

I think a degree of maturity and a committment to the goal are essential.

 

I think it has the same factors as in a taught North American model where the dissertation is what brings people down. I had a graduate prof with a Ph.D who said that who finishes a doctorate is not determined by intellect. By the time you get to the doctoral level you are dealing with very intelligent people so the course work is not a problem. He noted what we all know that it is the dissertation process where individuals end up in no man's land (ABD). That he said had to do with persistence (discipline) and the innate drive to succeed (finish). A Rabbi I knew told me he had to discipline himself to work on his doctorate every day regardless of how much work until he finally completed it.

In America it is simple to complete the doctoral coursework based on the intellectual strata involved in the process. In other countries it is simple to complete the proposal based on the intellectual strata involved. To complete the dissertation process in both cases is a whole nother matter.

In America (in the traditional schools) boy do you need persistence in some of the famous cases where the faculty advisor messed with the grad students (thwarting the process). In one famous case the grad student mudered his advisor. When they interviewed him in prison he showed no remorse and said something to the effect of "it seemed like the most logical course of action at the time".

North

 

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Safer to be an advisor of Distance Ed, huh?

 

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I really think it vital that one like or even love the topic.

 

Definitely

I couldn't imagine doing this for several years and not liking/loving the topic. How do people do it ?

 

This may be Ted Streleski, who used a hammer to kill one of the professors on his dissertation committee at Stanford. Streleski had been a full-time graduate student for something like 19 years, and snapped when his committee rejected his dissertation. He didn't murder his primary advisor (who was unavailable for killing, for some reason). When asked why he murdered Prof. Karel de Leeuw, Streleski said that de Leeuw had at one time made some remark about his shoes. Streleski used a "diminished capacity" defense, and served only 7 years.

The fraternities at Stanford used to have an annual "Ted Streleski Get Hammered party", which was somewhat insensitive since de Leeuw's wife still lived on campus a few blocks from the fraternity houses. But not only students are insensitive -- the faculty at U. Colorado used to hand out a "Streleski Award" at their Christmas party to the PhD student who had been in residence for the longest time.

A friend of mine at Stanford took almost as long as Streleski -- about 13 years full time (1976-1989). By the 80's, of course, various reforms were in place to prevent the kind of abuse that led to the de Leeuw murder. So my friend graduated, though he was rather broken by the end.

There have been similar cases, though I have not been close to any of the others. There was James Kelly, an U. Arkansas student (in English literature), who murdered his advisor (and committed suicide himself) after 10 years in a full-time doctoral program. There was also Wlodzimierz Dedecjus, a doctoral student at Wayne State who killed a professor who was blocking his graduation. The infamous Gang Lu at U. Iowa killed five people (3 professors, 1 senior administrator, and a post-doc) and then committed suicide. Lu was upset at criticisms during his (successful) dissertation defense and enraged that he had not won a coveted award.

Then there was Gert Potgieter, who ...

 

I registered for a PhD at Leicester University, England. I submitted my thesis in late 1981. My supervisor left it unread until 1984 and then sent me a languid note declaring he really should get round to reading it some time. The problem was that earlier I had upset him by suggesting he didn't seem to be interested in reading the first chapter I'd sent him. That had brought a threat (before he had read it) to downgrade it to a Masters.

After receiving his note, I resigned from Leicester, ignored his telegrams, and registered at a German University where they have a law saying all theses must be read within 3 months of presentation. I registered in May 1984 and successfully defended in December.

I think my experience at Leicester is not uncommon in other British universities.

 

No longer the case

Dr Leeman's experience may have been true some years ago at a range of UK universities but institutions are now penalised if students do not complete (or fail) in a timely manner. Funding for doctoral programmes can be withdrawn by the various central funding agencies and the Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC) and other quality control bodies now insist that instititons document a doctoral candidate's progress through the program with the supervisor(s) having to complete annual report forms that are, in many cases also seen by the student. Increasingly, a candidate will have two supervisors rather than one so a candidate who experiences problems can always go and speak with his/her other supervisor. A student, whether full time or part time must complete within 5-7 years otherwisew the time is regarded as 'spent' and s.he will not be allowed to proceed further. The only way someone could get an extra year would be to submit the thesis for examination and get it 'referred' which would then given them an additional year to complete, revise or whatever. I had a Chinese mature candidate who completed his DBA with me and that took him seven years part-time study (2 years course work) and five years to get his research and thesis completed. He went through two supervisors before I was asked to take him on. He got there in the end.

Dr Leeman would certainly not have that same experience at leicester now under its new vice chancellor (Professor Bob Burgess) who has an excellent record as a researcher (education and sociology) himself with a list of publications under his belt. He intends to turn Leicester into one of the top research universities in Britain and to some extent, it already is so across many departments. It has also been selected by central government to partner Warwick as the Leicester-Warwick Medical School. This will be for fast-track students who are already qualified in subjects related to medicine and they will be able to complete a medical doctor's course of study in a shorter period of time than someone going straight from school to read medicine.


telfax

 

black humor and degree completion

In many cases it is not intellect, but the happy combination of a sane faculty advisor(major professor) and persistence. When I was at an University in Florida there was an unhappy grad. student who had been working in his major professors lab. for about a decade. The major prof. had been publishing based on the students work. But when it came time for the doctoral thesis said the work was not "scholarly". The student, we'll call him john doe, shot and killed the major prof. Other students who found the major prof to be a "jerk" labled it an improvement and suggested making an annual "John Doe Faculty Improvement Award". Kind of sick.
all the best!

 

I forgot to add that I funded myself.

 

Doctoral Jerk-Around

I got jerked around during a doctoral program I was in almost twenty years ago! (Long story of a change in department heads... I wasn't "his" boy, my doctoral advisor left the university, my new chair tried to force a "neo-marxist" on my committee along with a male-hating faculty member, etc...). I pulled the plug rather than let it go on. Oh, they would have loved to have me hanging by a string for years more. Do I regret it? Yes, in many ways I do. I regret having wasted about four years of my life on it. HOWEVER, in another way I'm glad I had the experience. I have absolutely no need nor desire for a doctorate now (I have an M.A., an Ed.S., and am now working on an MBA). My experience working within a university so turned me off to a career in university academia that I got some great experience in another sector (military) for many years before landing a teaching slot at a community college. The bravo sierra is almost non-existent at the community college level. It is one of academia's great secrets. So I suppose the bad times I experienced when I was younger have made me appreciate my good fortune even more!

 

Re: Doctoral Jerk-Around

My exposure to community college faculty over the years makes me want to agree with you. Focused on teaching and service, community colleges seem less prone to the out-of-touch political in-fighting so common in academia.

Regarding doctoral programs, I suspect some of the nontraditional ones would have far less "Mickey Mouse" regarding your relations with faculty. I know this is very much true at Union Institute and University, where the learner is the chairperson of his/her committee. (Don't get me wrong, there are learners in Union who've complained about their core faculty advisors; there just seems to be less of it because the focus is on the learners, not the faculty.)

I'm not endorsing Union, or even suggesting it in particular. I'm sure other participants/graduates of nontraditional schools would have their points of view regarding this subject at Argosy, Walden, Nova Southeaster, Fielding, Capella, Northcentral, et. al.

Then there are the many non-wonderful schools where I'm sure faculty hassles are at a minimum. Ya gotta find em first!

 

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Indeed! The faculty advisors at Trinity C&U in South Dakota are almost hassle free. They go above and beyond the call of duty in making sure that the prospective student knows exactly what to do.

Welcome to TCU, please do the following:

1. Write your check.
2. Make it out to TCU.
3. DON'T FORGET to SIGN the check.
4. DON'T FORGET the 34 cent stamp.
5. Within 10 business days you will receive your diploma.

Hassle Free Advising!

 

no equation

The concept that if a faculty member is "abusive" or "unhelpful" then it must be a quality education is simply nuts. Power and control issues suggest low quality education. The purpose of a university education is to not only seek the "truth" but the best "truth". You can't do that in abusive and unsupportive situations.
While I agree that some of the less-than-wonderful institutions do little to promote a search for "truth" the institutions where the norm is to "hassel" students and "jerk" them around don't promote the "truth" either.
Look for a sane faculty advisor and committee members without axes to grind.
All the best!

 

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Re: no equation

Your best bet is to ask your advisor to suggest faculty members for your dissertation committee. By doing so, you will most likely end up with committee members who can work with your advisor. It is a big mistake to select committe members without consulting your advisor first.

Ike
Ph.D. candidate (NSU)

 

Abusive Committee Members

Some good posts here. During my bad experience I often thought that these people confused being an as*&$le (if you get my drift) with being good. And I did ask my committee chair to recommend people. He was the guy who wanted to force a marxist and an avowed man hater on my committee (she was the current, now former, "wife" of an openly gay politician). By the way, this wasn't just my opinion. I had women in my classes at the time come up to me asking if I needed their testimony for any lawsuit I might have planned. That would have killed me in that department even before I pulled the plug on myself. I used to go home at night mumbling "Is it them or me? Am I crazy or are they crazy?"

I have heard many good things about Nova, Walden, and Capella. IF I had to do it over again, IF I had the money, and IF it would pay off for me, I think I would do a doctorate from one of those three. I think Capella has a really interesting Ed.D. in instructional technology that I would have jumped at.