Should Harvaed Be Free?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Kizmet, Jan 17, 2016.

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  1. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    The only way they can offer free degrees is to do admissions completely by merit. Ain't gonna happen.
     
  3. nyvrem

    nyvrem Active Member

    "Donate a swimming pool, get a free Harvard degree"
     
  4. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    harvard is a private university. So, whether they offer free degrees is something that I would leave entirely to their discretion. The question should be, why is the federal government handing Harvard many millions of dollars when Harvard has a $37B endowment and is that an effective use of taxpayer dollars?

    People were absolutely livid about the "cash for clunkers" program because it was using government money to subsidize private car purchases. You could very easily be paying for my decision to buy a Cadillac. I would think this would evoke a similar outrage.

    It would be like if a billionaire received food stamps.
     
  5. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

    They sure did right by my daughter and her merit scholarship at HES.

    They offer this: "The Harvard Financial Aid Initiative (HFAI) is a continuation of this tradition and greatly expands financial aid to families who earn less than $80,000. And, if your family earns less than $65,000 per year, your parents pay nothing for you to attend Harvard." in the traditional Harvard https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works/harvard-financial-aid-initiative

    So umm...it is sorta free for many people. Only the heavy earners (over 80K) have to pay rack rate, I would think liberals would just love this. High income means you pay more to go and the poorest of admitted students get to go essentially for free as it is.

    What we really need, if you want a fully integrated world, is more white and other underprivileged Chinese students admitted to places like Peking University China's Unfair College Admissions System - The Atlantic
     
  6. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

    so BECAUSE they have an astonishing endowment (made up mostly of alumni $) and have managed their wealth well, they have different obligations than other universities? Interesting concept. I'm not sure I share that view. I'm an extreme couponer, so by that logic, my stockpile of toothpaste should be donated to a shelter because it exists in larger amounts than my neighbor who only has 1 tube in his cabinet. Yeah- I don't think so. My neighbor needs to plan better or pay rack rate.

    PS It's Sunday, so I better get back to clipping.
     
  7. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    If I may follow your analogy, let me just say that my local grocery store did away with all of their favorable coupon rules BECAUSE of extreme couponers. First, they did away with the ability to collect cash on coupon rebates. Then, they did away with double couponing.

    So let's not pretend that playing the game well doesn't sometimes cause a rule change for the game entirely.

    But endowments aren't built by playing the coupon game. And while Harvard has the wealth of its alumni to thank for such an endowment, it would be a fraction of the size if the school was younger than it was. If I invested $1M in 1900 today I'd have a hell of a lot more than $1M and that doesn't even account for all of the compounding that would occur from large infusions of cash being added to the endowment through philanthropy on a regular basis.

    But that aside, I think it's short sighted to reduce the argument to those who have should give away more. Princeton has less and yet, they give away their education to capable students who don't have the financial means to pay. The question is whether Harvard wants to truly nurture raw talent, regardless of the spending power of that talent's parents, or to simply be a finishing school for old money families.

    I'm sure they'd like to be both. And some argue they are just that. But with the ability to sustain itself indefinitely without collecting tuition the argument that they possibly could and should offer free degrees is a worthwhile discussion.

    And for the record, I really miss double coupons.
     
  8. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    I was never into couponing. Probably a mistake on my part but that's just me. I think that if the Harvard people decide to do it they'll find a way to make it happen. I think that even if they reduced tuition to the level of a state school it would make a difference to a lot of people.
     
  9. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    No, Harvard should not be free. If it were free, there would be no way to keep the riff raff out.
     
  10. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

    This is a ridiculous discussion lol. Harvard isn't even "expensive" by current standards. They offer free education via open courseware (for those who want learning but don't need a credential) they offer open access to those that want a credential but can't land admission at the College (extension, which is only about $500/credit) they've expanded into distance learning via extension, so now geographical access isn't important, they give free tuition to their employees and any family earning under $65k per year, and they award academic scholarships.

    Seriously, I think they are a model university. There are ~23,700 RA universities in this country, Harvard is at the top. Let's worry about the other 20,XXX who gouge students for over-priced under-prestiged tuition for degrees that have little ROI.

    Want to make something free? How about drinking water or flushing toilets? How about electricity or medicine?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2016
  11. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Well, but "free" doesn't mean "anyone will be admitted".
     
  12. jumbodog

    jumbodog New Member

    Indeed. I agree with Glenn Reynolds on very little but I agree with him here...

    Glenn Reynolds: To reduce inequality, abolish Ivy League

    The fact is that the Ivy League the major channel by which the rich have gotten richer in this country.

    But it's the lottery mentality. People don't want to soak the rich because they believe they will become rich themselves.
     
  13. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Firstly, the Ivy League is a sports league. People who went to Brown fit this a lot less well than people who went to Stanford. Reich is just using "Ivy League" because it's a recognizable shorthand for "elite schools" that conveniently excludes Berkeley, his own employer.

    Secondly, the assumption is that going to an elite school makes you wealthy, rather than being wealthy makes you more likely to go to an elite school. I agree there's a relationship between the two, but that it's a lot more difficult to determine cause than that.

    I think it's more that American culture, broadly speaking, has a much stronger propertarian streak than most similarly developed countries', and thus a stronger aversion to confiscatory public policy.
     
  14. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    But being expensive will keep the riff raff out.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2016
  15. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

  16. jhp

    jhp Member

    <s> I want it free. I demand that is free. I deserve it to be free. It is my inalienable right. It is a human right, and dignity question. I, by the very nature of my existence inherently must getting for free.

    The rest of you be quiet, and go to your local CC. </s>
     
  17. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

    Harvard may be among most meritocratic colleges anywhere yet they are maligned for doing well with their finances for nearly 400 years. Their degree is essentially FREE if the family makes less than $65K/year. At roughly that same benchmark federal aid would likely be eliminated (PELL) at nearly every school in the country and student forced to pay cash or take out loans. This is a silly argument for the author to make...yet sounds exactly like the sort of math one might expect from Berkeley.
     
  18. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Ted Kaczynski '62

    Making things expensive doesn't keep "riff raff" out. It just ensures that the riff raff meets a minimum threshold of wealth.
     
  19. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Let me just clarify that while I think an argument can certainly be made for free Harvard degrees, I also respect Harvard's autonomy as a private institution. If they want to make their degrees free, awesome. Good luck. That would be really interesting news. If they don't? Well, that's fine too. Harvard isn't completely closed off to lower income families.

    I still say that these elite schools shouldn't get Title IV funds. Then again, I'm opposed to any private institution receiving them.
     
  20. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef


    ....which is not yet free.
     

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