Why Argue With Success?

or as my elderly neighbor used to say(in 1955), who had a spiffy model A in his driveway, when he'd see me tinkering with my 38 Chev coupe (bought for $30) ,"If it ain't broken, don't fix it!"

So today I'm surfing the web for articles to copy in anticipation of beginning chap two of my thesis. I connect to Dr, Pastor Harmon's site www.biblebelievers.com/MBC_bio.html. Dr Harmon 's school is offering degrees now both through his church and on the net.

Dr Harmon is a grad (ThM, ThD) of Christian Bible College, (p. 112, Walston's Guide)www.Christianbiblecollege.org. The requisites to obtain a ThD there are six classes and a 15,000 word dissertation. So no degreemill, right?(( FYI, by way of comparison my last class paper done for Trinity Seminary, Ind -did 3 papers per class-was 18,000 words))

But here's my point, big dumb Bill (along with several around here) is pounding away at this "honest" grad degree and on occasion I(and others too)slap around the "dishonest" ones. Yet, while I spend my time in these supposedly practical and noble pursuits, Doc Johnson runs his Christian Bible College and puts out grads who not only are successful pastors but who also start more schools! Their system works, "it ain't broken, why fix it?"

They are feeding on success, why argue with it?

 

why argue???

I really appreciate your posts!!!!

but isn't this ===
if it works don't fix it?

contrary to the purpose of this forum???

(big grin)

as I see it the purpose of this forum
is to educate people concerning the need
to attend an accredited school
NOT the other way around (big grin)

 

Re: why argue???

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Howdy

That (if it ain't broken...)was a quote from my neighbor, but even had I myself said it I would still sleep well that night.

I think the point of this forum is to express one's point of view and receive stimulating responses . While this old thread was sort of underscoring an irony, written at a time of stuggle, it was not entirely a jest.

The fact is, in the Church some get docs which are not accredited, even are from degree mills, yet have successful ministries . My question was, why argue with that? In other threads I and others have answered this question. What's your answer?

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Good question, Bill.

I have many times asked this myself. From what I can tell, most of these guys, who get "Christian degree mills," however, don't really know thier stuff. I mean, they lack authenticity. They seem to have an attitude towards education that is something one "uses to get ahead." No, they won't say that, but they live it. I think, personally, that cheapens one's ministry, lacks authenticity, and other edumacated folk like me will smell it. Also, the lack of authenticity is an attitude that weaks through the seems of one's ministry so that all the laity will reproduce it. One can conceivably deceive a whole community into thinking that one "knows it all."

Because of my Christian faith, I think God judges these people. I also think they are missing out on the emotional freedom that comes with having faced tougher issues and worked through them instead of "bought a piece of paper." From what I can tell, the degree shopper is usually not a very emotionally healthy person.

Chris

 

Oh, I meant "wreaks through the seams"!!! I am not as edumacated as I thought!

 

RE what is my answer?

Well the people you mentioned
such as White Lahaye Zodhiates (?)
unfortunately do not really impress me
all that much anyway...... (grin)

But I accept your line of reasoning

Take me for example
I am very glad that I went the route
that I went thru to get my degrees....
Bill --- I was really the "lone ranger"
during my time at WES
even Prof. Vermillion cracked jokes
towards me... (extremely patient and
easy going guy)

but now if I want to pursue a more
advanced degree then I am between
a rock and a hard place
I want an advanced degree very much
in fact I am jealous of Bill Grover
(well just a little ...... big grin)
Actually that is what I plan to do
from 48-65+

But the problem is money
and I am wondering if a RA degree
will benefit me very much anyway
finding a job is a big joke
with the glut of Phd and "connections"
as they say in Chinese

So this is why I am still pondering
where to go after UNISA
If I make it thru that one..... big grin
The theology part is no prob
the research methodology is another matter
since I am not used to it after
graduating in '86

Christian mills are something of a prob
but someone here made it thru Golden State
and was able to use it to transfer to
American

Thus the whole thing is somewhat ambigous (?)
my spelling checker is missing
actually I could not quickly find it in Linux
ha ha ha

 

Re: RE what is my answer?

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WHOA,

I never said that La Haye or Zodhiates went to degree mills! Nor would I have the temerity to say White's alma mater, CES, is a mill. My definition of that term is a place where the work is lacking in quality or quantity. All my point was re CES is that it lacks accreditation and substance and utility.

As to whther these guys impress you or not, they are good at what they try to do, but I don't know about their having thorough theological knowledge based on my readings in White and Zodhiates, and La Haye was for years my pastor. Neither is a Chas Hodge. And Whites unaccred doc can be an embarrassment.

You may wish to factor into your reasoning about Golden State-American that American is TRACS not RA or ATS and may have lower entrance reqs. Further any RA school can accept a small % of non RA applicants.

Good "luck",

 

Re: RE what is my answer?

 

Asiatrek: White's newer books make less mention of his CES doctorate in cover blurbs than his older ones did.

I certainly can't knock Walston for any lack of transparency. He makes no fake claims about accreditation. What I cannot fathom is why he doesn't start teaching some residential classes, get a few other docs together, and begin working toward either DETC or TRACS accreditation. Never mind about whether the content of instruction would, or would not, be improved by aiming at or maintaining accreditation. (Having read TRACS' handbook, IMHO it would be improved.) It would be good for business, if nothing else.

 

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Hi" Unk"

What I don't get is why run such a school at all? To give Theo Docs work? To be a pres? To utilize atypical teaching strategies? To promote a unique religious viewpoint? I mean, with the availabilty of reasonably priced DL accredited Theo degrees why even run an unaccred school except in anticipation of achieving accred. But I think CES shows little signs of making that a serious goal. So why do it? I have read Walstons guide which says that in many cases accred isn't important, but I guess my view is narrower. Who can of a certainty know his/her future needs and why choose a school with far less utility. As has been well said by others, if learning is all that is important and not a useful and respectable degree, why then, visit the local library!

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Right! Points well taken! I do not understand Walston's motives either, unless he's taking some sort of ideological full-tilt run against the notion of accreditation. But then why'd he go to Puk to do a doctorate? Makes no sense to me.

BTW, today a Newburg rep says they've got candidacy with NCA. No mention of this (surprise!) on the NCA website. I really owe a debt of gratitude to all the posters to this site who made my ears prick up (or something like that) in regard to Newburg.

 

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Who said that and where?

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Who sez? A TTS rep who called me today, I guess wondering why they hadn't heard anything from me in a loooong time...so the village idiot (c'est moi) got on the horn to the North Central Association.

Here's their response:
"Trinity College of the Bible and Seminary in Newburgh, Indiana is NOT a candidate. The College has recently completed the Commission's Eligibility Process. This process simply determines whether an institution is eligible to proceed with an on-site visit for initial candiodacy. The institution has two years after the completion of the Eligibility Process in which to submit an institutional Self-Study and to schedule an on-site visit. No visit has been scheduled as yet." (emphasis theirs)

From God's mouth to your ear!
Ons vir jou, Suid-Afrika!

 

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Oh, all you got was a call to elicit you as a student? Boy can I top that! They want me to go to work for them! Yes indeedy, in today's email is an offer to become a Trinity "Educational Consultant." From the comfort of my own home I can join that elitist group doing exactly what the TTS rep did with you. What a fab ministry!


And what a temptation to sign on , call up the list of enquiries, and say " Hi there my name is Bill, may I give you REAL SCOOP about Trinity?...." But would I do that? Hee,Hee

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Of course, if Trinity is able to stretch the meaning of "accreditation" with reference to Liverpool, they should have no trouble stretching the meaning of "candidacy" with reference to the North Central Association.

Cory Seibel

 

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I think a dissertation on some aspect of some types of unaccred religious schools would be neat.

A week or so ago I got on the trinity forum and brought up the issue of what accreditation really is. After about 5 minutes I felt like the missionary in the boiling pot. Even today on that forum, and i have said nothing about it there for days, Hogg, the pres, is making appearances explaining that a school does not have to be reallyaccredited to be accredited!
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Ag, Bill, now I'm jealous! hee hee

Cory, the guy doesn't mention Liverpool. Now it's "Canterbury." He did say you can get a sticker (for real!) on your diploma about "Canterbury" accreditation if you pay extra, since all other schools incorporate accreditation charges into their fees, sez he.
I asked about MDS and the explanation of the ghost sem in Evansville was so convoluted I couldn't repeat it if I wanted to.

Look, I don't begrudge the fifty bucks I paid em to apply, or whatever it was. Coulda been a lot worse. What got me wondering was the unfamiliarity of the DA degree. After finding out the history and rationale of the DA, that led to searching the web to see what publications the faculty had done, or what conferences they had "papered" at. Almost nothing--but most faculty names showed up re: MDS. Then, a look at MDS was, well... Then I looked at the nipsnick website, bounced from there to the USDE/CHEA material, then to Dr Bear's material on GAAP, etc.
Eventually I wound up here.

As I say, t'anks guys.

Here's the sad part: the DA degree is actually a worthwhile educational construct and it's too bad that nobody accredited offers it by DL, and nobody offers it in theology at all.

And, ja, a diss/thesis on unaccredited schools of this kind would be a hoot, till the lawyers gat hold of it, anyway...

 

Bill,

Could you forward me that e-mail address? This sounds like a great opportunity to make some extra money by doing something I really enjoy--talking about distance learning.

 

Since Steve took NIFI off the Internet perhaps I could submit it to Trinity College and University with my name on it. If a word was changed here and there it really wouldn't be plagiarism would it?

 

Even god's soldiers have their conflict with vanity. What I find interesting, is using a traditional method of lying.......stating the truth to entice a person to trust you, then saying the truth is not a full truth, but rather a guideline.

Regards,

Tony