Death of a Diploma Mill: University of Phoenix Going Down in Flames?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by warguns, Aug 1, 2015.

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  1. warguns

    warguns Member

  2. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Full disclosure: I worked for UoP for one year as a college campus chair, then I taught for two additional years as an adjunct. I've had no connection for the past 10 years.

    The article is troubling, not for what it alleges about UoP's troubles, but the heavily biased language it uses.

    -- UoP is not an "online university." It is a classroom-based university that grew a significant (at least half) online aspect.

    -- UoP is not, in any reasonable definition of the word, a diploma mill. It is a teaching factory, though, with some scholarship going on at HQ.

    -- It conflates tuition and fees collected from veterans and GI Bill money. That's double-counting; veterans using the GI Bill use that money to pay for their tuition and fees. UoP doesn't collect it in addition to tuition and fees.

    -- "Over the last several years, the school has come under fire for allegedly soaking up this GI money while leaving veterans strapped with debt." This is nonsensical. Using the GI Bill is cashing in on an entitlement; it does not create debt.


    I'm fine with criticisms of UoP; I'm critical of them myself, having been on the inside. But I also can distinguish what's real and what's b.s. This reporter cannot.
     
  3. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Indeed. Thanks for setting the record straight. There's too much shoddy journalism about higher education even from those without an axe to grind.
     
  4. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Indeed. Thanks for setting the record straight. There's too much shoddy journalism about higher education even from those without an axe to grind.
     
  5. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    The people who usually write these articles know nothing about higher education, diploma mills, accreditation, financial aid, online programs, etc. Someone on another forum posted this article to prove that UoP is a diploma mill. How does a very low graduation rate make a school a diploma mill? Diploma mills hand you a degree for little to no work after you pay a fee.
     
  6. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    The University of Phoenix developed an unfortunate reputation. In some cases it was their fault and they were sanctioned. In other cases, I wonder if they were a victim of their own success. They became very large and when they first expanded they were watched uneasily by local universities. They were certainly innovators in terms of delivery and flexibility. This made it easier for thousands of students to earn accredited degrees and pressured local colleges and universities to become more flexible.

    Somewhere along the line UofPs rep took a hit. I have mentioned issues I am aware of and several times I have been asked if they are accredited. The issues may be wrapped up in the whole for profit stigma that has caused Grand Canyon to question whether they should go private. If I recall, other universities tried to block Grand Canyon's sports teams from being allowed to play college sports.

    As Rich noted earlier, careless use of words like degree and diploma mill are not helpful and somewhat stigmatizing to graduates of an accredited school.

    U of P may have benefited from GI Bill money and TA but they made themselves available. Representatives were willing to spend hours at armories and reserve centers on drill weekends talking to soldiers about benefits and educational programs.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2015
  7. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    If you grab a person on the street, who has a negative opinion of UofP, and ask them about accreditation they will almost certainly say that UofP is unaccredited or has some form of unrecognized accreditor.

    It's largely a symptom of the average American not understanding what accreditation is, how it works or what it means for a school.

    Ask that same person if National or Regional accreditation is "better" and theyll likely state the former. After all, the nation is larger than a region. Again, most people simply don't understand, largely because they haven't taken the time to learn, about US accreditation.

    Still, much of it simply doesn't add up as presented. As sanantone notes, low graduation rates wouldn't indicate a school was a diploma mill. A diploma mill would "graduate" everyone who paid. Thus, a diploma mill should have a 100% graduation rate.

    And every negative opinion I have heard of UofP (outside of billing issues) was always a product of "a friend/cousin/other relative went to UofP for one semester and..."

    I've run into a number of former faculty (some of them also adjuncts at established B&M universities) who attest to the academic rigor of the programs and the strong work ethic of the students who succeed there. That doesn't mean UofP is without its problems, mind you. But I'm more inclined to listen to the first hand account of former and current faculty than the second hand account of an unspecified third party.
     
  8. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    For its time, their innovation and flexibility coupled with economy of scale was unique and not only made a difference in working student's lives but forced other colleges to become more flexible.

    I have met a number of women from poor economic backgrounds who got a University of Phoenix degree and were in professional jobs. U of Ps aggressive marketing, walking them step by step through the process and options put education within their reach and helped them get to the goal. These women's life experience was different from that of a student coming from a household where both parents had college degrees and perhaps a better understanding of what was possible and how to navigate systems.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2015
  9. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Critics of many of these schools also tend to ignore the role of corporate dollars in securing student enrollments. My company pushed Capella for years. My prior company actively promoted DeVry among its workforce.

    There's a significant difference between an RN who earns her MSN on company money and an unskilled worker who earns an A.A. By way of large amounts of loan money. For starters, the former likely already has a job with an employer who is not only footing the bill but is very likely to accept that credential for raise and promotion opportunities.

    We can zero that in even further, if we wanted, to something like an MBA. If I'm a mid level professional who needs an MBA for a specific promotion I'm in a different situation from a recent college graduate who wants to earn an MBA because s/he hasn't been able to land a decent entry level job. At a minimum, the former has a much higher likelihood for success.
     
  10. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    I think the issue goes beyond uninformed writers or readers. The issue lies with UP and the image it portrayed of itself. UP failed to presents an image to the public that would benefit its graduates. UP had ample opportunities to be a goodwill ambassador for its graduates. Instead graduates and enthusiasts are left with the daunting task of defending UP. However, in the meantime, the value of the education received have been diminished. UP should pay damages to it graduates, not for the quality of the education, but for the poor way, or the perceived diminished way in which UP presents itself. The UP's wounds are self inflicted.
    For-profit education was supposed to be a better way of delivering education. In most cases it looks like for-profits have failed to provide better quality education than the state.
     
  11. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    After my last post, I spent some quiet time reflecting on UoP and its current dilemma. Phdtobe really has it right. As the leader--by a very large margin--in the business of educating working adults, UoP could have made its mark by contributing to the field, by being a thought leader, by emphasizing the outcomes available to its graduates in terms of their careers, etc. But not one finger was ever lifted in these regards. UoP did two things very, very well.

    First, it was a powerhouse at the business of higher education. Enrollments were king. The quickest way to become the head of a campus was to be a successful enrollment counselor, then be a campus director of enrollment. An educator with a PhD who runs the academics really well as director of academics on a campus? Give me a break.

    Second, it corporatized and standardized its curriculum. It didn't leave it to individual instructors. You got a syllabus with a set of topics to cover and books to assign (e-books sold by UoP, natch). You had some flexibility in the classroom, but the assignments and grading rubric were all set without you. Since 40% (or so, it fluctuated) of the students' grades came from team assignments, all of that was standardized, too. It was truly the McDonald's of higher education, both in the good and the bad ways.

    UoP led a consortium of schools at one time, but it was Snow White and the seven dwarfs. It wasn't very collaborative, and it focused a lot on business methods. I guess that helped the little schools involved, but meh.

    Corporations have known for a long time that giving something back really helps your reputation and your PR. UoP never seemed to see or value this. They were focused on one thing: growth. And when that slowed, they were screwed--their stockholders aren't going to want to hear it. I don't know where the retrenchment cycle will end for them. It will; they won't just disappear. But their market cap could just dry up if investors stay away. Will it become a penny stock and get de-listed? Who knows how far this can go.
     
  12. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

    I can't click the link- if you can't define diploma mill, I don't care about your opinion.
     
  13. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    The link works for me, but it's not like you're missing much.
     
  14. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    UoP is not a diploma mill.
    I never seen any articles that prove UOP provides substandard education, or any claims about academic dishonesty. I know good number og graduates from UoP and know their journey to the graduation was challenging.

    All I seen is complains on business practices, and possible misrepresenting or making unclear promises. Part of it are misunderstandings of pure research by students and graduates.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2015
  15. scaredrain

    scaredrain Member

    University of Phoenix is not a diploma mill but their quality does leave one to question it. I was recently on a hiring panel for a full time faculty position where I work. We asked the potential applicant about his dissertation and he had only surveyed 15 people for his study and they were all colleagues where he worked. Needless to say that this tidbit did not sit well with the rest of the hiring panel, who felt that the doctorate from University of Phoenix was subpar, based on the information provided. I think the issue is that people do not do their homework before enrolling in any college. Whether it is University of Phoenix or a traditional brick and mortar campus offering online courses, you will have to do the coursework in order to pass the class.
     
  16. Lerner

    Lerner Well-Known Member

    You got very different testimony then I.
    Managers I know and colleagues with degrees from UoP worked very hard, and the courses were demanding, integrity was upheld all the time.
    The issues I heard complain about is more in the last decade and business practices, cost, but not quality of classes by DL.
     
  17. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

    LOL I should have said I won't, not I can't. ;p
     
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Surveyed 15 people? Or interviewed? Fifteen people in a survey would not represent a sample very well, and would require the use of non-parametric statistical methods in order to draw distinctions about the larger population. Still, if the population located in that company, using them as a basis for study might be wholly appropriate.

    If the candidate had used a qualitative approach, 15 might be a huge number. It depends on what was sought and how it was elicited. I've seen doctoral dissertations written on one person. (Case studies and ethnographies often use one or a few subjects.)

    I certainly hope someone delved deeper than you described before dismissing this person's work...and application.
     
  19. scaredrain

    scaredrain Member

    It was the actual survey and the candidate really did not seem to know much about his dissertation and much about his actual research. It is isolated incidents like these that make people at times doubt distance learning and the quality of learning, but the same could be said about traditional learning.

    I am a huge proponent of online/distance learning, having earned my doctorate and both my master degrees online and I am a former adjunct with University of Phoenix. I have had students there who worked hard and some who simply wanted any grade they could get.
     
  20. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member

    If the candidate was surveying people in my occupation he would have surveyed the majority.
     

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