Levicoff on Nations University

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Steve Levicoff, Jul 29, 2015.

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  1. Steve Levicoff

    Steve Levicoff Well-Known Member

    As much as I think Neuhaus is one of the best posters to come onto this forum in the last ten years, I have to respectfully disagree, and have no words to eat. But since I’ve been asked about this development, and since there are two threads (one of which is 14 pages long at this writing and several years old)dealing with Nations’ accreditation by DEAC, I decided to start a third thread to keep the critique separate and allow Nations’ devotees (notice I didn’t say fans) a targeted place where they can trash me.

    Like Neuhaus and several others, I didn’t see the accreditation coming, but I do join their cultic followers in congratulating them on their achievement. Why do I say “cultic followers?” Because much of the reaction to their accreditation has been on the level of, “Golly gee! I’m thrilled! Just thrilled! Yippee! I feel like dancing with happy feet!” Get over it, kiddies, it’s no big whoop.

    Now, the bottom line? Do I think Nations is a degree mill? Nope. (I bet I’ll be quoted on that.) They’ve been smart enough to keep their scope to three levels and have not purported to offer a doctorate. At least not yet. Would I recommend them? Nope. To me, they’re still a mickey-mouse school. To wit…

    I have always maintained that graduate degrees in the helping professions should have a residency component. Since the M.Div. is in a helping profession (its only purpose being preparation for the pastoral ministry, some degree of accountability should be required. In other words, I have never, and will not now, endorse any M.Div. degree (even one that is RA) if it does not have a residency requirement.

    Second, they can be condemned based on their address and contact page alone:

    Okay, my little numb-nuts, does anyone know what “PMB” stands for? Private mail box. Like the kind used by a mail forwarding service.

    While a phone number appears at the bottom of their homw page, their contact page notes that all contact with them should be by e-mail. The phone number does not appear there. And the phone number that does appear on their site is a toll-free number.

    So what do you get when you attempt to look up a local (non-toll free) number for “Nations University” in New Orleans? Nothing.

    Now, I’m giving them the benefit of doubt because they have been accredited by DEAC, but if not for that fact, I’d say the address and (lack of local) phone alone do make them appear to be a degree mill.

    I’m delighted that we have a shill, um, representative from Nations on the forum. But I can’t help but note that when Jodie, an obvious insider there, was asked about his or her role at Nations we did not get a response. And that Jodie posts anonymously. And that there is no “Jodie” in Nations’ faculty or staff listings on the web site or in their catalogue.

    Keep in mind that I have been critical of DEAC for years, back to the early days of DETC. Also remember that before DEAC was DETC, it was the National Home Study Council, and they accredited trade schools. And did so quite well. But DEAC has continued to expand the scope of schools and programs they accredit, and in my mind they are a mickey-mouse accreditor despite their recognition by DoEd and CHEA.

    Will your DEAC-accredited Nations degree open all doors? If you haven’t already done so, the currently running thread at http://www.degreeinfo.com/accreditation-discussions-ra-detc-state-approval-unaccredited-schools/50998-deac-canada-need-help-asap.html is a must-read. It’s what I call a DEAC nightmare. And, although it addresses an associates-level degree, it also involves a helping profession.

    Finally, remember that I have consistently and for many years been in the “RA or the highway” crowd. (Or, in my case, RA and the highway. Can’t resist a little humor.) Also, I have consistently said that the phrase online university is an oxymoron.

    So, am I any more impressed with Nations than I have been in the past (which is not at all)? Nope. Can you learn “stuff” through Nations? Absolutely. But will you end up with a credible degree? Not in my book (actual or figurative).

    The problem with the Nations cultists (yeah, okay, I say that with tongue-in-cheek for the “Yippee!!!” crowd) is that, like many people who make inquiries here, they’re looking for the easiest and cheapest degree out there. But you get what you pay for, and while you may not pay much with Nations, you won’t get much either. And that, as Cronkite said, is the way it is.

    Now I’m getting farklempt… Discuss among yourselves. Hope y’all don’t mind, but I’ve pretty much said everything I would have to say about them, and unlike some of you, I do have a life. And three RA degrees. But I manage to stay humble by reminding myself that with those three degrees and fifty cents, I can afford the same quarter-cup of Starbucks as any other trucker.
     
  2. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    Lol, Steve starts his own thread to highlight his opinions. We are not worthy! ;)

    Some interesting thoughts. However, similar things are said about your alma mater (Union) where you earned your Ph.D. I know academics who consider it (and schools like it) to be an easy way to earn a Ph.D (RA or not) and a cheapening of the Ph.D. title. They believe their residential experience at other institutions to be far more rigorous.

    Your point about residency and helping professions is also interesting and well taken. I recall a thread here at one point where someone mentioned that New York does not allow use of online Masters or Doctorates for counseling licensure. Even schools that do offer online counseling degrees require certain courses to be taken in residence.

    I think DEAC has become a solid accreditor. A couple of years ago they strengthened (toughened) their standards even further. Their new President (or whatever she is called) seems quite competent. They are US DoE and CHEA recognized. Are they going to have the versatility of an RA degree? Yes and no. But then PhDs from schools like Walden and Capella and a number of others do not have the same utility in academia that a "regular PhD" has. Anecdotally, I have heard case after case where University of Phoenix degrees do not enjoy utility (actually rejected) even at undergraduate level and they are RA.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 29, 2015
  3. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Just to be clear, the words I was willing to eat were those that I spoke to the effect of:

    "Nations is never getting accredited. They aren't trying to become accredited. Stop getting your hopes up."

    Because, obviously, I was wrong. Nations has achieved accreditation. I am sincerely happy for the school and its alumni and fans.

    But, that doesn't mean Nations doesn't creep me out. The loyalty to Nations has, at times, appeared a bit cultish. And I still have no sympathy for people who willingly attend an unaccredited school (on the promise that it is a candidate for accreditation) and then whine feverishly about how they have a degree (or at least coursework) from an unaccredited school. If accreditation isn't important to you then go, study and have fun. If accreditation is important to you then only study at accredited schools. I can't believe that advice even needs to be stated out loud.

    Now, regarding the DEAC Canada issue, I feel I should say something since I actively commented there as well. I respect what DEAC has become. And I respect the work of J. Davidson Frame, PhD of the University of Management and Technology. It was more for the latter reason that I decided to attend UMT. However, I also did so recognizing and accepting that I live in an RA or the highway sort of world. My Masters offers me utility but less utility than I would probably have from an RA school (though, I would posit that a Masters from an unknown NA school may have more utility than a degree from an RA school with a horrendous reputation).

    I also agree that some professions should have some residency requirement. I think I am more flexible than Dr. Levicoff in that I don't mind if this is supervised off-site. For example, if you enroll in the Pharmacy Technician program at Penn Foster you are required to complete an internship at a Walgreens/CVS which PF has set up through an arrangement with that company.

    So I have some fairly negative feelings about the Ashworth ECE program because it doesn't have any form of supervised internship (the PF program does, though you have to find a place to do it and set it up yourself). However, I feel for Stanislav's friend because the degree meets the requirements (as they are presented in the thread) and I think that government bodies should follow their own guidelines. If supervised student contact is required then include it in the written guidelines. Imposing arbitrary limits above the written guidelines makes it next to impossible for people to know how to proceed toward licensure or professional memberships and that makes me grumpy. At the same time, would I want someone watching my kids who earned an ECE degree that didn't require them to actually interact with children? Well, maybe, but that's because I largely think degrees in ECE are bogus and if singing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and changing diapers represents a significant portion of your daily activities, you can do it without a degree, but that's another rant entirely.

    Regarding ministerial degrees, I would feel better about an online M.Div. if they had some sort of off-site thing that required your physical attendance. I think requiring students to earn 1-2 units of CPE, for example, as a condition for graduation would be a neat way for fully online programs to do that. Students can pick a site nearby and meet the requirement. The school would likely be doing their students a great service by requiring this as it would greatly enhance their marketability (i.e. they might actually have more graduates with jobs).

    But that's neither here nor there.

    Part of the reason why I have less of a beef with zero residency M.Divs. is that I am also keenly aware that anyone can start a church. There is no legal requirement for you to be in any way qualified. I could start the Church of Neuhaus next week if I felt like paying the fee to incorporate it. And it would be every bit as legal and enjoy every one of the privileges (such as appointing legally authorized wedding officiants) as the Catholic Church. Though my scandal budget would be understandably much smaller. But I don't represent the bottom rung of people who can start churches. Churches can be(and have been) started by people with criminal records, registered sex offenders, people with a history of bilking companies and non-profits out of cash and pretty much every other unfavorable type you can imagine. So I don't view it as the responsibility of a non-denominational (or multi-denominational) seminary to vet the person, per se, because that person can do just as much damage without the degree if they felt so inclined. But that's just my two cents on that subject.

    Congratulations to Nations. I still wouldn't recommend them. And for everyone's sake I hope they hold onto their accreditation until, at least, after I die. Because I really don't think I can stomach another few years of "I think it's gonna happen this time!"
     
  4. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    Interestingly, schools like Walden have combined online with residency in their Nurse Practitioner programs. You do online and then the practicum at an approved local site. How that compares with residential programs in terms of quality I don't know.
     
  5. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    There are certain programs that will never be able to eliminate residency requirements entirely (and that may not be a bad thing). Some schools simply have satellite campuses damn near everywhere. Some schools partner with companies or organizations that can provide the space, the supervision and the guidance and then report back a satisfactory completion to your school.

    Traditionally, schools just partnered with local organizations. If you went to Binghamton University they likely placed you as a student teacher in the Binghamton City School District. If you needed a clinical rotation for nursing you might go to Binghamton General Hospital etc. Distance learning means that they can just set up relationships further away from their physical location. But the thing is, just because a traditional B&M school set you up with a local school district doesn't mean that the program was high quality. And just because the program was set up remotely doesn't mean that it is a bad program. I think they can only really be evaluated on an individual basis if we really want to dig into program quality. Even then, people often mistake student satisfaction and job placement numbers as sufficient indicators of program quality. Those might be necessary metrics but they are hardly sufficient to evaluate the quality of a program.
     
  6. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    Key word is "anecdotally".

    I taught for UoP for a few years, and was asked by several former students for graduate school recommendation letters (references), which in most cases, I was happy to provide. Some stayed with UoP, some went for other online schools (Capella, Walden), while others applied to traditional B&M schools. All were accepted, perhaps not at their first choice (some got a little too ambitious with school selection), but never once were they rejected because of the source of their undergraduate degree.

    I keep hearing stories about the "worthless" UoP degree, but never once have I seen a credible, verifiable case of any UoP graduate being told that the source of their degree was not acceptable.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  7. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Like Nehaus said, anyone can start a church. You don't even need a high school diploma to start a church. Someone who is earning an M.Div is going way beyond what is required. Keep in mind that, if someone decides to go through the ordination process, most denominations and even independent churches will screen and provide some kind of mentoring or apprenticeship.

    Concerning pharmacy techs, in Texas and many other states, you can sit for the exam without any formal education or OJT. However, at least in Texas, you are required to eventually receive some hands-on training. CVS and Walgreens will be more than willing to provide this after they hire you.
     
  8. Koolcypher

    Koolcypher Member

    NATIONS UNIVERSITY


    [​IMG]
     
  9. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Lately I've seen job postings locally for Pharmacy Techs that require you to be PTCB certified. Not a state requirement, but a lot of the pharmacies around here seem to have jumped on the band wagon.

    As for states that license Pharmacy Techs, it is a minority presently. But let's face it, it's going to continue spreading. Right now Illinois, Michigan, Georgia, Florida and California were the first places I saw that require some sort of licensure.

    But I just threw the example out there as what a distance education program can do to actually add residency requirements while still being a feasible option for a distance learning student.

    And, anecdotally, I can show you a bunch of LinkedIn profiles of people who are in successful careers with UofP degrees. If you get bored later, search LinkedIn for the word "attorney" and add a "University of Phoenix" filter in education. That will turn up more than a handful of current lawyers most of whom earned their bachelors from UofP before continuing on to law school.

    That might lead us to a whole discussion about the utility of a JD, but that's another discussion entirely.

    But search and you will find UofP graduates working for Goldman Sachs and Merrill Lynch. I'm not saying those are typical results. Quite the contrary. I'm showing how you can make anecdotal evidence pretty much say whatever you want. That is to say, I'm showing how any sentence following the word "anecdotally" can almost always be dismissed with no great loss to our civilization.
     
  10. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Yes, and other than a high school diploma or equivalent, no formal education or training is required to become certified by PTCB. You just need to pass the test.

    http://www.ptcb.org/get-certified#.VbkrZvlViko
     
  11. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Which is fine, but isn't really relevant to the point I was making.

    All I'm pointing out is that a distance education provider with a program that, arguably, has a program that should require some sort of residency or clinical stage, has managed to provide it by partnering with a corporate partner. While I'll admit that some of my comments on the Pharmacy Tech thing were tangential to that point, I'd rather not fall completely into the rabbit hole by discussing the licensing future of Pharm Techs.

    Pharm Techs, like ministers, are not licensed and the barriers to entry are fairly low. I can start my own church tomorrow and register as a wedding officiant in NYC by the end of the month (the NYC Clerk, I hear, is slow with such registrations). Likewise, I can find a pharmacy that will hire me for my pretty face and train me on their own. It's an imperfect comparison because a Pharm Tech has to work under a licensed Pharmacist but a Minister can crown himself Pope. So I beg your indulgence.

    Distance learning providers are on the scene trying to cater to these professions. But, that doesn't mean distance learning programs in either area must forego in-person education. Providers of both programs have managed to do it. I cited Pharm Techs really just to suggest that, as an alternative to requiring M.Div. students to attend class on a physical campus, the school could require them to complete CPE (i.e. training through an independent provider similar to how Pharm Techs complete their training through CVS/Walgreens).

    In any case, I think that point has been made and the recently deceased horse has been sufficiently beaten.
     
  12. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    As Steve has noted, I asked Jodie on the open forum about her connection to Nations and she ignored my request. I also asked her via PM and in her answer she rudely refused to provide any information of any sort. This leads me to believe that she is not an employee of the school because any employee, even if they wanted to remain anonymous, would be more gracious in their refusal. So maybe Jodie is a student or maybe a local bartender (do people really tell their troubles to bartenders?) but you may want to hesitate before accepting her word as the gospel truth (yeah, it was on purpose).
     
  13. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    On a related note, Texas doesn't allow any out-of-state distance education program to be offered to its residents if it requires an internship or practicum that has to be set up by the student. In some ways, it protects the student; in other ways, it does limit the student's options.
     
  14. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Also, I absolutely don't regret stating that I would not speak about Nation's accreditation until it was on the DEAC website. I didn't so much think that NationsU would lie about accreditation (at least not while an application was pending) but I still don't, to dovetail with Kizmet's pun, take unsubstantiated rumor as Gospel.

    Heck, I don't even take Gospel as Gospel.
     
  15. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    Someone I know who lives in Texas did Walden's NP program with local practicum.

    Also with UofP, there are indeed success stories. But I have a friend whose brother was denied transferability for any of his UofP credits by a state university and had to start all over again. Not the first case I have heard of. Another friend was told by a school Administrator friend of hers that she does not select UofP grads for teachers (with alternative cert).

    Anectdotes are not verifiable facts the further they get from the source but before you dump 1500 per course into a program I would look into it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2015
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    You have no idea what you're talking about. Referencing the ignorance of others just adds you to that list.

    An anonymous poster (with a good amount of posts, though) citing people he/she "knows" but doesn't name is hardly supporting a very contentious statement.

    The Union degree is not and was never "easy." There were some quality control problems that were addressed 15 years ago. There were some people who did some really 'out there' degrees, but those degrees were never easy.

    You design a complete PhD, assemble a committee, execute the degree program, manage its process, then produce doctoral-level research. You do all that and tell me it was easy.

    'Other' people said it? Well, you said it here, and you're wrong. Having done another doctorate at a school ranked in the top 1% in the world, I think I have some insight into the subject. Oh, and I'm neither anonymous, nor am I citing what some other unnamed people said. Or didn't.

    Finally, even if you are right, you are off-topic and irrelevant. The rigor of Steve's (or my) degree from Union has no bearing on what he has to say. (I personally don't have a take on the school in question.) Nothing. Save your personal attacks for things you know something about.
     
  17. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    Wow! No personal attack or disrespect intended. Sorry if it came across that way Rich.
     
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Then let me tone it down a bit. I'm sure I made my point.

    It wasn't an attack on me. But it was certainly a personal attack on Steve. He wasn't using his Union degree to establish any authority. The degree had nothing to do with the topic. It all added up to an ad hominem. The fact that it wasn't accurate--the bulk of my post--just kind of added to it.

    I have absolutely no take on the topic. I disagree with some of the points Steve makes about DEAC and what is and is not a university. But those are off-topic, too, so I'll let it go.

    Thanks for the kind words. Let's move on, shall we? :smile:
     
  19. Garp

    Garp Well-Known Member

    Agreed. Sounds good!
     
  20. LearningAddict

    LearningAddict Well-Known Member

    There are two worlds to this. You've got this world where accreditation matters and everything that makes up a school's program and identity is scrutinized, which is great; It helps us and it helps onlookers searching the internet for relevant information.

    Then you've got the world where a school like Nations exists: it's internal culture, it's way of doing things, the impression it leaves on its students, and the connections it makes with other schools in their realm, and ultimately the reputation it builds within that realm.

    In Nations' realm, they have built a lot of good will and it has led to them being able to connect with RA programs (Liberty being a big one) for their students to be able to advance their studies, somewhat acting in the way a junior college system might in that regard.

    It's easy to find negatives, and certainly there are plenty, but that can be said for a lot of programs, if not all. Still, Nations can justifiably feel accomplished by continuing to meet the goal of offering a free or low-cost religious education to the impoverished and imprisoned, and continuing to connect with other programs that will allow students to advance in ways that Nations' current program and structure can't provide.

    As for the students; most people enrolling in a Bachelor's program like Nations' has are doing so in order to enhance their knowledge as religious leaders, or at the very least--for the "average joe"--to get that application checkbox taken care of in the most affordable way possible, not to rise up the ranks of corporate America.
     

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