Inbreeding

Folks - In teaching on-line I've notice a fair amount of inbreeding among DL schools and grads. For those not familiar - inbreeding is the practice of earning multiple degrees from the same institution (and/or teaching at a school from which you've earned a degree, especially your last degree). In the academic world this is frowned upon - diversity is viewed as good thing.

I'm especially curious about DL programs that employ a large number of their own grads as faculty. Imagine earning a bachelor's and master's degree (and perhaps even a doctorate) from a DL school and then teaching for the same school. It would seem that you'd have such a narrow perspective.

With the growth in doctoral programs, I see the day when it will be common for folks to earn all their degrees (BS, MS and PhD) from the same DL school! DL programs (especially for profits) don't mind this - they save on marketing costs by retaining students. But this is most alarming given the fact that many DL programs are effectively open admission - will students ever really be challenged as long as they stay at the same DL school? Who will challenge students if the faculty is made up of a significant number of graduates from the same school?

Finally, I see a degree of inbreeding among DL oriented folks - that is, those that pursue bachelor, masters and doctorate all from DL institutions. While on-ground may not be possible for some, wouldn't most students benefit from at least one traditionally earned degree? If the quality of DL schools compares with traditional institutions, there shoould be no reason that a DL grad can't cut the mustard in traditional programs.

My perscription:

1. Personal - Avoid earning more than one (and certainly more than two) degrees from the same institution. Seek out a mix of institutions in your education - for example, if you go DL (or exam based) for a bachelor's degree, tough it out in a traditional, AACSB progam for an MBA. Seek diversity in your educational experiences. Employers may well notice.

2. Institutional - Establish limits on the number of your own undegrads you accept in to graduate study (I know for-profits will never do this!). Encourage your best students to go elsewhere, and work to attrack the best students from other schools to attend your school. As for faculty, think long and hard before hiring a graduate to teach - especially one who has his highest degree from your school. Make sure such a person has proven himself in the outside world - and not just in your halls.

Thanks - Andy

 

Andy, your thoughts are appreciated. I recently began giving serious thought to doing a doctoral program in Public Administration (DPA) at UNISA. But then I noticed something. I believe eight out of ten professors in the program earned their degrees from UNISA. About fifty percent of them earned all their degress from UNISA. That fact, coupled with some of the comments I read in thread about a UNISA Ed.D., gave me some pause.

I am happy to have completed undergraduate and graduate programs from traditional institutions. (Though I did complete an MBA from Southwest - a fact a rarely ever mention). I think you are correct when you point out that it broadens the perspective. I guess my search for an affordable doctorate continues.

 

Andy, you have some good points as usual, but you've let your (somewhat strange IMO) obsession against for-profit schools dilute your argument. Your implication that non-profit schools (an oxymoron if I've ever seen one) are paragons of ethical behavior is comical, at best.

I was asked not too long ago by a former student to write a recommendation letter for him for graduate school, and the school to which he was applying was the same one where he got his undergrad degree, and also the same one where I had taught (a private, RA, non-profit, liberal arts college) as an adjunct lecturer. I was happy to write him the letter, but I also ended up talking him out of enrolling with that school, not because of "inbreeding" concerns, but because I honestly thought it wasn't the best option for him and his field of study.

Apparently he let the school know why he decided not to enroll, because I got a pretty rude phone call from the Academic Dean, telling me he would appreciate me keeping my "negative comments" to myself. I also wasn't extended an offer to teach a course this summer. I believe in coincidences, but not one that convenient.


Bruce

 

Multiple degrees from the same school is bad?

I do not understand why? A BA is a BA and an MA is an MA. As long as the school is accredited why would it matter?

How about having multiple degrees from schools like Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard or Yale? Surely that would be viewed as good?

 

Re: Re: Inbreeding

Next time you catch the Academic Dean speeding, ask him about those negative comments just before you write the ticket.

 

Re: Re: Inbreeding

Bruce - Point taken. I couldn't help but take a jab at the for profits. Please understand that I'm not saying that all non-profits are "paragons of ethical behavior". Many of them (especially those that are tuition driven) operate in similar ways to the for-profits.

What I'm concerned about is the motives of the for-profits (and tuition driven non-profits). I honestly believe that their profit (or tuition) motive leads them to compromise educational standards. What I've seen of the these schools, for example, includes extreme grade inflation, fast degree completion and open admissions policies that dilute educational standards. Their "customer" focus leads to an environment where students pay their tution, earn their A's and walk away with questionable credentials in a very short timeframe. Almost no one ever flunks out. Sure you can earn a DL MBA from a for-profit or non-profit tuition driven school - but what does it mean? Does such a degree represent even half the learning of a traditional, 2 year fulltime MBA?

I'm not arguing that DL lacks merit. Many people can't devote full-time to study. Accessibility is a key advantage. But why do DL programs feel a need to cut content? Traditional full-time MBA programs include 54-60 credit hours of study taken over two academic years. How can part-time DL programs graduate folks with as little as 30-36 hours in 15 months? Isn't accessibility enough - why cut standards?

Where I currently work we recently restructured two DL master's degree programs. Originally, we had 17 three credit courses in the rpogram. We now have 14 four credit courses. Why did we do this? Becuase of a desire to be more "competitive", reduce the number of courses students have to take and graduate students faster. Our new four credit couses meet for the same number of weeks as the old three credit courses. Will we really be able to teach 1/3 more in the new format in keeping with the extra credit hour we award?

Thanks - Andy

 

Re: Multiple degrees from the same school is bad?

Kane - If you are smart enough to get into Harvard (which admits less than 12% of their applicants), go right ahead and earn an MA there as well. You're not likely to be challenged. They employ a diverse faculty and student body.

But a "BA is a BA" is no more true than "a steak is a steak". There are differences in quality - due to instruction, curriculum, quality of incoming students and a host of other factors. Don't be misled to believe that all degrees are equal - they aren't.

Regards - Andy

 

Your point is well taken.

I am curious as to why having, let's say, two Bachelor degrees and two Master degrees from UNISA would be viewed as a negative simply because they come from the same school?

Would it be that much different if I had the two BA's from UNISA and two MA's from Natal?

I just do not understand the reason why it is not good.

 

Re: Re: Re: Inbreeding

I'm not sure that the premise of this statement holds up. While most of the top-rated MBA programs may be 54-60 credits, many unranked AACSB programs are 30-36 credits. I think that the difference is in the rigor, depth, and breadth of the programs at different schools, rather than a difference between DL and face-to-face instruction. For instance, there are 4 AACSB schools within commuting distance of me. The requirements for an MBA are 30 credits from St. Mary's, 33 credits from UTSA, 36 credits from SWT, and 60 credits from UT Austin (evidently credit requirements increase as you travel north ). Obviously there is a big difference between these programs, but none of them are DL. The DL programs that you refer to could probably be more fairly compared with the face-to-face programs that require 30-36 credits. I'm not saying that you don't have a valid point about course acceleration, but I think that you're off base regarding the credit requirements.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Inbreeding

We try to keep things simple for you southern folk, lest you get too confused...


Bruce

 

A counter example can be generated here:

http://www.aph.caltech.edu/people.shtml

The applied physics department at the California Institute of Technology lists 26 faculty.

Of these, 9 earned all of their degrees from a single university. (34.6%)

7 earned their doctorates from Cal Tech, where they are now teaching. (26.9%)

2 did both, earning all their degrees from Cal Tech itself, where they are now teaching. (7.7%)

Subtracting the overlap, you get 14 who did one and/or the other. 14/26 = 53.8%

This percentage would rise significantly if you included those who earned two degrees at a single university, or who earned a bachelors or masters from Cal Tech, got a doctorate elsewhere, then returned to Cal Tech to teach.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Inbreeding

I grew up in Alaska, so I'll take the high road here.

 

Re: Re: Re: Inbreeding

Oh, I'd never do something like that......


Bruce

 

Re: Re: Inbreeding

Bill - Interesting observation. To look at another discipline, I checked out the faculty list at Vanderbilt University's business school. I didn't find anyone with all three degrees (B,M,D) from the same school. Further, there was no one with PhD from Vanderbilt on their staff. I found some folks that had earned a masters and doctorate from the same school - which is understandable given some doctoral programs award a masters while the student is in process. A few had a bachelor's and masters from the same school - but a doctorate from a different school. Note also, that many had changed fields along the way - math to marketing, engineering to operations research, etc.

In both these examples, we're talking about top tier institutions. Cal Tech and Vanderbilt are among the elite. They employ world class faculty and provide rich and diverse environments for their students. Can one be "inbred" by earning multiple degrees from such schools? Perhaps - but given the fact that they represent the best institutions in the world, it certainly doesn't seem like much of a problem.

The concern I'm raising ties back to an earlier thread. A student had an undergrad degree from NSU and wondered if a masters from the same school was a good idea. I said "no" due to the perception of inbreeding. In like fashion I see lots of Baker and UoP folks that earn a bachelor's and masters from the same school. Students get used to the institution, and it's easy to sign on for another degree. However, I think students may be better off going elsewhere - for a diversity of views and to prove oneself in a different setting. Indeed, in many of the DL schools we talk about here there isn't much difference in faculty and curriculum between bachelor and master's degree programs. Further, if the DL institution used their own grads, there is further inbreeding.

Regards - Andy

 

Ahhh

So "inbreeding" (I feel like this is turning into a Jerry Springer episode ) is not good because it does not demonstrate a student has proved himself in various educational settings?

Boy I hope that sounds right?

 

Inbreeding?

Oops, that was meant to be a thumbs down. I don’t want anyone to think I’m a sicko.

I’m glad I didn’t pursue a Masters degree from my alma mater. I was thinking about doing so, but I wanted ”variety” on my resumé.

 

Re: Ahhh

Inbreeding is bad for lots of reasons. Diversity in one's background is probably the biggest reason. The business about proving oneself is also a factor, espeically when one has come from an institution that isn't well recognized or regarded.

Example - I have a DBA from Nova Southeastern. I learned a lot there and I think the program was great. But when someone see's my resume they also see that I graduated from Vanderbilt with honors. What are they going to think they think? Lots of things are possible. It would seem reasonable that I can't be totally stupid and graduate from a top 25 (or 30) MBA program. 20+ years of solid industry experience and publications also help build my case. The DBA, at least for teaching positions makes the package reasonable.

Say I decided to take graduate school easy. I could have earned an MBA from a DL program somewhere. But then what would it look like? Good industry experience, MBA from a non-AACSB, non-rated MBA program. And a DBA from NSU. How does this package look? Certainly it isn't as strong.

Everybody gets to make their own choice on school. All I'm arguing in favor of is diversity (by attending different schools) and challenge (by stepping up to a challenging program somewhere along the way). Getting a BS, MBA and PhD from all DL institutions that are known for being accessible - but not noted for rigor isn't as strong a path. I know when I review resumes for the school I teach at - such folks tend to fall by the wayside.

Regards - Andy

 

Oxbridge has been doing this for centuries!

Oxford and Cambridge Universities in the Uk have been appointing 'their own' for centuries! I've found it intesrting how these two institutions have coped with the introduction of 'new' subjects - especially business management! There are still many Oxbridge dons who see business/management as nothing short of heresey! Oxbridge has little or no tradition teaching business/management but now both institutions have management/business schools. What is interesting is to note how they are attracting 'their own' back as faculty! Many British faculty employed there did the undergraduate degree(s) at Oxford or Cambridge and then went on to do other things elsewhere. Oxbridge didn't have business/management schools so these people went on and did their doctorates at the top business schools (LBS, Manchester, Bradford, Warwick and so on) but now they arte being attracted back to Oxbridge and getting the jobs because they they 'know how the system works' having been there to get their BA degrees (eventually MA for most of them when they've purchased it) and possible another earned master's degree. This is nothing new in British tradition. Your own attracts your own! Not for one moment am I suggesting that it's right. I've posted elsewhere indicating, for example, that new law firms with partners holding the old polytechnic degrees tend to attract the new university/old poly graduates! The old poly grads have always done better in the bar qualifying exams!

 

Re: Re: Ahhh

I don't think that anyone whose ultimate goal is a teaching position would argue with that. But....I've thought a lot about this, and I'm a bit miffed that inbreeding seems to be an almost unique concern for DL graduates.

For instance, I had two certain professors in graduate school. Professor A had the following CV:

B.S. Elizabethtown College
M.S. Shippensburg University
Ph.D. Michigan State University

Professor B had this CV:

B.A. SUNY-Albany
M.A. SUNY-Albany
Ph.D. SUNY-Albany

Both of them were excellent teachers. As a matter of fact, I would invite both to sit on my doctoral committee if I ever decided to go with the Union Institute. They are both tenured Assistant Professors.

While Professor A is a brilliant teacher, I don't think anyone would argue that SUNY-Albany is more prestigious than either Elizabethtown College or Shippensburg University. Professor B is also a brilliant teacher, but does he suffer from having all his degrees from the same school? Not that I can see.

I guess my point is that if you have all your degrees from the same traditional, B&M school, chances are you probably won't be questioned or looked down upon. If someone does the B.A., M.A., Ph.D. route from the University of <insert state here>, will anyone really raise an eyebrow???


Bruce

 

Re: Re: Re: Ahhh

Really, this issue could only exist in US.

And it will only exist in US while some people maintain their attitude towards DL degrees.

Do we need to be concerend about it? The only reason that someone would have cause to be upset or embarrassed, is if they didn't put their all into it.

Otherwise - you have done the work ... does where you did it really matter that much, or is it your performance/publications/self publications that count? I can't find any evidence to back up Andy's 'theory' unless he is floating this to start a base for some research, and i have sent his message to a few whose opinions I respect - they don't concur with you, Andy.

So I'll do my fourth PG degree at the same place without any fear that someone will sack me because of it, and I encourage everyone else to do what they feel best at and do it where they feel the most comfortable.

If you change institutions someone could wonder:

Did he do that so that he could show ALL of his degrees - he really MUST have an identity problem!

Was he such a problem that AB won't have him near the place again ... maybe THAT is why Andy is trying so hard to convince us as to WHY he did his doctorate where he did it?

You're OK Andy - don't slash your wrists ... you are probably employed irrespective of where your degrees came from. Take heart

Peter French MEd
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