The War on For-Profit Colleges

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Neuhaus, Apr 15, 2015.

Loading...
  1. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I just thought I would start a discussion and see where it takes us.

    When I graduated from CTU there wasn't a lot of (apparent) talk about for-profit schools. Accreditation was a deciding factor.

    As I read through comments on news articles about the ongoing troubles with Corinthian Colleges I am finding a lot of people making a lot of weird assumptions:

    1. ALL for-profit schools give a crappy education
    2. ALL for-profit schools have shady accreditation
    3. ALL for-profit schools have horrible job placement rates
    4. ALL for-profit schools give you nothing but a worthless piece of overpriced paper

    CTU was certainly not the cheapest degree option. But it wasn't the most expensive, either. The most expensive school options I encountered were small liberal arts colleges. I was strongly steered toward King's College (Wilkes-Barre). My classmates who went there left with significant student loan debt.

    I left with about $20k in student loans for a B.S. I paid that off earlier this year (yay me!).

    But this ongoing battle is troubling to me for a few reasons. Even though I know most of these opinions are bunk and that I have an accredited degree resulting from a quality education, I get nervous when I begin to see a ground swell of opposition.

    So what do other people think about the goings-on at Everest (and other Corinthian schools)?

    Do you think Corinthian is ruining for-profit education for the providers who are actually doing a good job?

    Is this the beginning of the end for for-profit education?

    Are you starting to worry that people may look at your degree with malice rather than the indifference they likely afforded it previously?

    I'm going to say again that I'm not soliciting life advice for myself. I have my opinions. I just want to start a discussion (as that's kind of what we do here).
     
  2. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    I think it's at least a bit complicated. I don't believe that any of your statements (1-4) are necessarily correct but some of them are correct some of the time and so the reputation grows. In my case I'm just driven away by the price tag. I think many people were just not aware of all the DL opportunities available to them and got pulled in by the big advertisers while the quiet state schools (for example) went largely unnoticed. Now, because of the debt issues and the fact that DL opportunities are more widely know, enrollment at the big for-profits has fallen off.
     
  3. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I think some of the early for-profits also attempted to seize market share in a way that made sense for traditional businesses but ultimately failed for colleges.

    One of these approaches was the idea that they should have a physical campus location everywhere you turn. That idea hasn't panned out. And we see most of those campuses having closed. (Remember around 2003-ish how many campuses American InterContinental University, UofP and others had?)

    I, personally, think that it's like any new industry. There was a bubble, of sorts. Some schools figured out how to do what they do without attracting unwanted attention and generally offering a higher quality product. Corinthian clearly didn't pull that off. CEC hit some bumps in the road. Capella has been pretty drama free, for the most part. I think that, in the end, as with any venture (for or non-profit) some will survive and others will close.

    If you told me back in 1999 that Gateway computers was going to do a nose dive straight into the ground I don't think I would have believed you.

    But it does create a stigma. Grand Canyon, I hear, is thinking of going non-profit just to avoid that stigma. And it wouldn't surprise me if more schools went non-profit just to sidestep the reporting requirements.

    It can also set the stage for restrictive legislation (not likely with the present Congressional make-up) or, dare I say, accrediting bodies either cracking down on some schools or (even stranger) CHEA/USDOE cracking down on accrediting bodies.

    This whole Everest thing is bad. And it doesn't make ACICS look very good. Not to mention how it makes other for-profit schools.
     
  4. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    I attended two for-profit colleges: Colorado Technical University and Western International University. I also taught at an NA for-profit.

    Most people don't understand accreditation. Yes, many people incorrectly assume that all of the well-known for-profits are either unaccredited or lack regional accreditation. I have had a few "exchanges" with people online who assert that credits from the University of Phoenix won't transfer to any traditional school, and I absolutely despise UoP. The reason I'm so adamant about correcting these errors is because some people who attend schools like UoP might be looking to transfer to a cheaper school.

    Unfortunately, the for-profit colleges that have given the public an impression of the industry are the most well-known for-profit colleges. Most of the large for-profits have earned their bad reputations. While the public may not have a good understanding of accreditation, they know how many for-profits recruit. UoP actually has decent commercials, but have you seen the local commercials for for-profit career schools? They often look like this.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQYtAX6DFGo

    They play during tacky talk shows trying to attract single mothers to take out $30,000 loans to train for jobs in medical assisting that pay $8-13 an hour. The for-profit universities that offer 4-year and graduate degrees also have a disproportionate number of economically disadvantaged and minority students. To be fair, community colleges also have a disproportionate number of economically disadvantaged students. The way I think the public sees it is how come poor students are going to for-profit colleges when community colleges are much cheaper? I can only tell you the reasons I saw from my former students at a for-profit college.

    1. Some had attended community colleges and thought they were too hard.

    2. Most of them did not know that the local community colleges were about $2,000 per year.

    3. Most of them did not understand accreditation. Our school had NA accreditation, and the transfer options among local schools were very limited.

    4. Our school offered a somewhat self-paced format while the local CCs didn't.

    5. The students thought it was normal to pay $19,000 for an undergraduate certificate and $28,000 for an associate's degree.

    6. They didn't even know how to begin with applying to a college and filling out the FAFSA. Many didn't even know what the FAFSA was. Our school held their hand through the whole process.

    7. We required a proficiency exam for admission, but it was not nearly as difficult as taking the Accuplacer, ACT, SAT, or a similar test. Almost no one in our school was recommended for remediation even though many instructors complained about students who could barely read. This leads me to a more general issue. I believe many students who apply to CCs become discouraged by the number of remedial courses they will have to take. I don't know if this is still true, but about half of the Alamo Community College students used to need remedial courses. You're not forced to take remedial courses at most for-profit colleges, which makes them appealing to many aspiring students.

    8. Our school would call students multiple times everyday until they enrolled. I know of some large for-profits who engage in the same behavior. As I understand it, there are some non-profits now adopting this approach, but they learned it from the for-profits.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2015
  5. Rifleman

    Rifleman New Member

    Good points from everyone so far. I was thinking about this issue yesterday in a thought experiment while pondering somewhat unrelated political issues. I do believe that people have the right to come together, form a business, and offer education as a service. Of course this can lead to abuses and needs to be regulated in some fashion (i.e. accreditation, audits, etc.), but I think that many state and private schools can be guilty of this as well.

    Some anecdotal experience: Before testing out of an undergraduate degree, I attended a somewhat reputable (regionally ranked vs. nationally ranked is USNWR) private university that was pushing $20k a semester in tuition. I am not exaggerating in anyway, when I say that most of the courses were filled with very subpar students. Many of them were from the inner city and were not prepared for college level work (or were transfers from better ranked institutions), but were being supported by tax payers to help keep the university floating in cash.

    A lot of the practices that this school engages in: loose admissions, grade inflation, watered down curriculum, etc. are just as bad as the worst for-profit school that someone could think of. The experience was a huge eye-opener for myself, because I realized that if this school is decently ranked by USNWR, there is a very good chance that some institutions with "RNP" are even more scary. I'm not sure what it feels like to step foot on a UoP campus, but I can imagine that my experiences at this university was pretty close to what it would be like. I wonder how many more "private" schools are essentially operating as a for-profit, but hiding behind their nfp status?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2015
  6. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Fantastic points, sanantone.

    I have noticed that the general public is incredibly ignorant of accreditation. I have had the same discussion where people have been adamant that ANY "online degree" program course would NEVER transfer to a real university.

    Years of watching ITT Tech commercials has implanted certain notions in peoples' minds.

    It appears Everest was a pretty tragic NA school. The most recent article laments the man who has a $27,000 associates but can't get a job at the Geek Squad.

    Thing is, unless the qualifications have changed since last I checked, you don't need an associates degree to get that job. If you have zero skills in IT and wish to work in IT you would likely be better served with a certification to get your foot in the door rather than an associate degree.* But, as you said, to a large segment of the population that doesn't know any better, this was an "obvious" path. That Everest disappointed had as much to do with their expectations not having a basis in reality as Everest offering crappy programs.

    This is probably going to sound arrogant and elitist (it isn't intended to be) but if community college is "too hard" and you cannot do the basic price comparison between schools, college may not be the best path for you.

    I will say that for-profit schools are a bit more aggressive (traditionally) to enroll new students. Some were better than others. American InterContinental University once got frustrated that I didn't answer their third call in an hour (during a workday) so they decided to call my base to try to have me paged (military bases don't work like that). CTU, despite the same parent company, was assertive without being rude. But Liberty University was about the same as CTU in terms of assertiveness.

    *incidentally, a local CC has an AAS in IT which includes coursework specifically to help you get a few certifications depending upon your area of specialization.
     
  7. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    I believe it was $37,000. LOL. It is my understanding that network administration does not prepare you for PC repair. Yes, unrealistic expectations are also a problem. That, again, comes with not doing any research. Unrealistic expectations are epidemic in my field regardless of the type of school attended.

    It is the honest truth. Some people might mature and learn down the road.
     
  8. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Good points, Rifleman.

    The disclosure requirements for for-profit schools seem a bit misguided to me. I think they should apply to all schools public, private, for-profit and non-profit. The assertion is that for-profit schools are just SO bad that if their employability and completion rates drop below a certain threshold we need to cut off federal funds.

    I would think ANY college with dropping rates should lose federal funding.

    I also think that's one of the reasons why schools like Capella are dipping into competency based learning and subscription services following the WGU model. Look at Patten University, no federal funds needed. Schools like Capella can diversify their revenue streams while a few schools are able to stay afloat solely using private money.

    I think that upcoming changes may change the business. I think some will fail while others succeed. But I think for-profit education will end up stronger in the end.

    Otherwise, I need to get started on my "back-up" B.S. :D
     
  9. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Some do, some don't.

    Heck, was CTU the best choice? Probably not. But it definitely wasn't the worst choice. If I went back in time and had a complete do-over I likely would have gone another route.

    Then again, if I could go back a few more years I likely would have made some very different choices immediately following high school.

    You live and learn and adjust as necessary.
     
  10. Rifleman

    Rifleman New Member

    Excuse some of my grammar above, ten minutes is not enough time for me to correct all of my mistakes. ;)

    I wanted to add one more thing about walking on campus: whereas I had to get past decrepit buildings and ratty dorms to get to class, I am willing to bet that the UoP campus is at least well maintained.
     
  11. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I was reading about GCU's non-profit exploration and thought I would share the link. The comments, I believe, are also rather interesting.
     
  12. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    The Phoenix campus that I've driven by is a very modern looking glass and steel office building. If you saw it you wouldn't think "college."
     
  13. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Don't forget that you are in a distance education forum, people in this forum know very well UoP, Devry, Walden, CTU, etc and might have a bias against these schools but for the rest of the world, besides UoP, how many can differentiate between CTU and Excelsior? or between NorthCentral and Fort hays state university?

    Besides academic jobs, most people would put your degree is 3 baskets; top school (e.g. Harvard), mid tier school (University of Minnesota) and a generic RA no name school (e.g. Excelsior College).

    I completed a graduate certificate from a for profit school mainly because I profited from a discount as faculty in this school. I have never been asked about this school in my resume and never have been questioned about it. I submitted the transcript to WES Canada and gave me the equivalent to a graduate certificate in Canada and this is all my employers need to know.

    There are hundreds of RA schools, I think you are over thinking this issue. Did you learn from this program? Do you feel that you are applying this knowledge if your work place? Do you feel that the program made you a better professional?

    Check the national ranking below:
    National University Rankings | Top National Universities | US News Best Colleges | page 24

    CTU is unranked and at the same level as other no name schools such as California Institute of Integral Studies, Idaho State, Wilmington and other schools that we don't discuss here.
     
  14. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    I thought I laid out pretty clearly in my opening post that I am not soliciting life advice on the subject. I am merely trying to discuss a contemporary issue. I don't see how you can think I'm "overthinking" an issue by wanting to talk about something that is in the news right now.

    My statement that you quotes was not me asking if I need to go out and re-earn my degree. It is a question intended to provoke discussion given the current climate of for-profit education.

    Everything else you've said has been said elsewhere and I generally agree with. But, within the context of the impending collapse of Corinthian Colleges, many of those points need to be revisited.

    We're not talking about rankings. We're not talking about general employer perceptions or the lack of reputations for many for-profit schools.

    We are talking about how a major player in the for-profit education world is crashing and burning as I type this message and how public sentiment is turning against all for-profit operators (including rules which will be implemented this summer which specifically target for-profit college while leaving their non-profit and public counterparts untouched).

    Grand Canyon University feels so affected by the stigma that they are thinking of going non-profit. Schools like Keiser University have already taken that step. Maybe it's all a passing fad. Or maybe it isn't.
     
  15. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I wonder whether the "stigma" explanation has been overstated. Grand Canyon University has a Christian basis that may not be well supported by their current tax status. They only converted to a being a for-profit because they were cash strapped and otherwise would have gone under -- they sold their soul to the devil, as it were. As for Keiser University, it was privately held and the Keisers were already billionaires (or close if not there). They may have decided that you really can have enough. And there's also the matter of gainful employment regulations.
     
  16. workingmom

    workingmom New Member

  17. Neuhaus

    Neuhaus Well-Known Member

    Excellent points.

    Does Grand Canyon really care about the stigma? They have a pretty solid reputation regardless of their financial structure.

    As for Keiser, I can see that being a legitimate transfer to enshrine the school's legacy. The media has been incredibly critical of it because Keiser avails itself of the for-profit services owned by a number of family members. This was the basis of a complaint to the IRS that Keiser was, essentially, inuring to the benefit of the Keiser family rather than the public. I think those criticisms are the same sort we see whenever they plaster a non-profit CEO's salary all over the place and say "See! It's a non-profit and this guy's making $300,000 per year!" Yeah, well, that CEO might be overseeing a multi-billion dollar enterprise. They need someone with the ability to do that and you aren't going to attract the right talent at $30k per year.

    Just because an organization is making money doesn't mean it is bad.
     
  18. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Long before Keiser University went non-profit, the Keiser family gained control of non-profit Everglades University and integrated it within their overall system, so I suppose they had practice.
     
  19. me again

    me again Well-Known Member

    Keiser University was for-profit and Everglades University was not-for-profit. Dr. Keiser purchased Everglades University and, thus, he instantly had his legal foot-in-the-door for being established as a non-profit. He then subsequently transitioned Keiser University into a not-for-profit status. It was a very ingenious move on his part. They still receive Title 5 funding, but they are no longer hamstrung with DOE measurements and restrictions i.e. gainful employment, percent of discretionary income, etc.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2015
  20. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    The public is well aware of more than just UoP. They know about Devry, Kaplan, ITT Tech, and Everest. Everest commercials have been the target of many parodies. More regionally, people are aware of ICDC College. If anyone has ever watched daytime television, then they might have heard of Brown Mackie and Sanford Brown.
     

Share This Page