The Illusion of the B&M Degree

So alot of online/distance degrees really tout that the degree doesn't say anywhere on it that it was gained online. However, if you live in one part of the country, have a resume with jobs in that part of the country, and a degree somewhere else, it is fairly obvious that you must have done it online or via distance learning.

In your opinion, is it worth specifically looking for sem-local colleges/universities so that its less obvious its a distance degree?

I've been considering the university of north dakota for a degree in applied economics, but I live in Texas. It will be fairly obvious if I put it on a resume that I did it via distance learning. On the other hand, there are local universities that have online programs that are similar. I like UNDs better though. Struggling with whether or not it is better to pick somewhere local even though the program might not be as good to avoid people who think poorly or online/distance learning.

 

Nobody cares as long as the degree is regionally accredited.

 

Personally, I think cost is a more important factor than proximity.

 

If the degree was completed online or on campus does matter to some people. I've seen instances first hand when applicants have been downgraded or cast aside for certain positions with certain companies due to a hiring manager's disdain for online education. Typically, this was the case with For-profit schools, so I don't think you'd run into the same issue with a known public/private not for profit school.

As others have stated, as long as the school attended is accredited I don't think most people will care. There are lots of reasons someone's school could be outside of the location for the job listed on their resume. For example, I traveled extensively in previous jobs managing operations all over the country sometimes for up to 24 months at a time, however my job was based out of IL despite the fact my homestead was in the southeast and I was living on the West coast.

 

In my opinion, you should choose the school that you'll be proud to have on your resume. Sometimes people are embarrassed of their degree, and if that's the case, you'll never-ever- be able to hide that emotion from anyone with intuition.

 

I agree. My personal opinion/experience has been that virtually all of the apprehension and animosity to online degree programs has been transferred to for-profit schools. There are so many well known and well regarded public and private universities offering online programs that most folks don't think twice about it.

At this point, assuming that you are selecting a B&M school with an online program, the most important factors are now whether the curriculum and financial obligations fit with your goals and resources.

 

Uneducated opinions about for-profits

For-profits have taken on a mythical, negative and unwarranted stereotypical image amongst some people. For example, while visiting a fellows house (for religious reasons -- nothing educationally related), he began lambasting the for-profits. Mind you: this was an uneducated fellow who had no dog in the race, but he proceeded to begin a pontifical diatribe about for-profits.

 

me again,

You've been on this site since 2001. I've been on this site since 2003. In that time we have had a front row seat for the vilification of for-profits. It really has been amazing to watch. I wrote years ago that places like UoP and Kaplan were destroying their brand, and the brand of for-profits as a whole, but it has been stunning to see how quickly the general public has picked up the distinction. It has been really interesting seeing the number of schools with online programs emphasizing the fact that they are non-profit as a big selling point for the program.

The down side is that some good schools may be getting unfairly tarnished by their "for-profit" status (I am thinking of AMU/APUS for one), but that is the way things are. Personally, I question whether this stigma will ever wash away.

 

Keiser University was a for-profit school, but it became a non-profit by purchasing (and merging with) the non-profit Everglades University. Is there really any difference now in the tuition prices or in the quality of the educational product? Naw, probably not. LOL

IMO for-profits are reaching a niche market that otherwise would not be reached. However, what Americans must realize is that having a Bachelors degree is no guarantee of financial success or job success -- but that's the American dream that is being propagated. The important thing to remember is that it's just a dream -- and as long as Americans chase the dream, colleges and universities will continue to sell it. Conversely, I would not want to enter the job market without a Bachelors degree.

 

That may be true. However, I believe (and current enrollment numbers and share prices seem to agree) that this niche is rapidly shrinking. This is due to at least two factors. First is the massive increase in distance learning/part time degree programs being offered by private non-profits and public schools. Second is my previously mentioned brand destruction.

I remember back in the late '90s when it seemed like there were only 2 options for people looking for a distance MBA, either Herriot Watt or Salve Regina. Now, it seems that almost every school has a distance MBA program. There are tons of bachelor's degree programs out there, many offering in-state tuition for out of state residents. It has gotten to the point where I can think of very few situations that I would ever recommend a for-profit school to someone. There are just way too many options out there.

The niche that the big for profits were really playing in were the niche of people who would be interested in getting a degree but did not know about all of the options available to them. That is why for-profits spend so much money on marketing (particularly during daytime tv and late at night, when the unemployed are likely to watch television). I just recently met someone who signed up for DeVry based on those tv ads. If they don't know anyone who can give them better options, or don't bother to search the net for a forum like this, they wind up at some of these big for-profits.

I don't think that Americans still believe that a bachelor's degree is a guarantee of financial or job success. I think people now believe that it is becoming almost a necessity for any chance of a middle class life. So many jobs that previously didn't require a college degree now require one for a candidate to be competitive.

 

and really, since when do people care if their assumptions are carefully constructed around facts? That's asking a lot. I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being completely serious. In general, people poke at the distance learning big box brands.
Here's a funny that JUST happened. I had a conversation with our neighborhood lifeguard (he's a rising college senior) and what his plans are after graduation. The degree he's considering -doctor of physical therapy- is available in many distance programs. He told me he didn't want to move away, etc. I suggested distance learning, and his reply was "no, I want to go to a university, not the internet."
So, apparently, "the internet" now has college. <shrug> And this is from a kid, so he's certainly immersed in technology and should know better.

 

The postprofessional (transition) DPT for physical therapists who received their qualifying professional training at the bachelor's or master's level is available by distance. However, within the past few years professional entry requirements changed: now the DPT is the entry-level requirement in the United States. This isn't available by distance. There are hybrid entry-level DPTs, but they're heavy and frequent in their on-campus requirements (8 weekends per trimester at the University of St. Augustine, a Thursday to Sunday session every month at Nova Southeastern).

 

I can attest to this. I teach at a nationally accredited, for-profit college. Thank goodness I'm leaving soon. My students found out about the school from commercials. This school plays dozens of commercials everyday during daytime television. I remember one student was shocked when I told her that the Alamo Community Colleges are only $2,000 per year. She paid $19,000 for a certificate in criminal justice. The students at this school are mostly taking on debt for certificates and degrees that aren't going to get them much pay. One student completed the medical assistant program, found out the pay was low, and came back for a certificate in CJ. Unbelievable. Our program is in danger of being put on probation because either our students aren't finding jobs, or they are finding very low paying jobs and can't afford to pay their student loans. One of my current students told me that someone who finished the program before I started working there is now a security guard. I'm honest with them. I told them they aren't going to be able to do anything with their certificates in CJ that they couldn't do with a high school diploma/GED. Criminal justice does not belong at a vo-tech school because it's more of an academic field than a vocational field. It's practically a liberal art; my university calls it an applied art.

After having attended two for-profit universities and taught at a for-profit college, I do not have a high opinion of the industry. I occasionally recommend APUS and Patten University for the low costs, but that's about it. After hearing about for-profits directly recruiting veterans with brain injuries, I don't think my opinion of them could get any lower. I'll admit that some non-profits act like for-profits. SNHU is a former for-profit that still acts like a for-profit.

 

At the Associates level, CJ is either an AAS, an AS or an AA. An AAS in CJ is probably certification as a law enforcement officer, to include driving, shooting, self-defense tactics and other hands-on training. An AAS does not fulfill all the lower division academic requirements to move forwards into a bachelors program.

An AA in CJ is in the liberal arts category and it generally qualifies the student to move forwards towards a bachelors degree without having to take any more lower division courses.

A bachelors in CJ is much like a degree in sociology, English or history. It should produce a well-rounded and educated graduate who is ready to fulfill his civic duties as a good citizen. It is not the same as attending a recruit academy, nor is it the same as an AAS. It's apples and oranges.


A certificate in CJ is ridiculous and worthless because it is such a generalized field. Instead, just get an AAS in CJ or attend a CJ academy for certification as a law enforcement officer.

 

Blacks, women and for-profits

Many people now lump all for-profits into the same category, as if it's standardized. Now for some fun... If blacks are only 13 percent of the population, but if they comprise 30-40 percent of the prison population, then can all blacks be categorized as having a propensity or proclivity for being criminals? No. Women comprise over half of the population, yet they only constitute six percent of the prison population. Does that prove that women are better citizens than men? No. People are making similar lump judgements about all for-profits, simply because they are for-profits.

 

I don't think this discussion has labeled all for-profits as bad. I do think that this discussion has acknowledged that a significant part of the less informed populace labels all for-profits as bad. IMHO, that must be taken into account when choosing a degree program. Part of what we are getting from a degree program is the credential along with the associated reputation of the school (or the specific type of school).

To me, the more interesting question is what is the role of for-profits as the non-profits are rapidly expanding their program offerings into areas that were traditionally dominated by for-profits.

One of the last domains that I saw for-profits maintaining a foothold was in PhD/DBA programs. While we talk about there being an oversupply of PhDs, in some areas (particularly the professional programs, like nursing) I have personally seen a lack of doctorally prepared faculty at smaller schools. As a result, I have seen people with doctorates from for profit universities do very well (tenure track) with these degrees.

At the university that I worked at, the most recent department chair for nursing had a PhD from Walden. Before she left, another professor was on the tenure track because she was in the UoP doctoral program. Look at the faculty for DSU's Doctor of Science in Information Systems degree. It seems like the most popular university where these faculty members got their doctorate from was Capella.

However, even at the doctoral level, we are seeing an expansion of offerings by non-profits, particularly the smaller non-profits. In the nursing program that I spoke of above, most of the new faculty without doctorates are enrolled in a new doctoral program offered by a local state university. I have seen several other non-profit doctoral programs open up recently.

I wonder, as non-profits expand their programs and the general public makes a bigger distinction between for-profits and non-profits, what does the future hold for the larger for profits (not the small schools that have found a local niche). Will schools like UoP and Kaplan have to scrape deeper and deeper into the bottom of the barrel for students? If so, won't this destroy their brand further? I just do not see how those large for-profits recover. I am not saying that they will go bankrupt in the next 5 years, but it seems like they are competing in a rapidly shrinking market.

 

Yes, there are some misinformed people who categorically lump all for-profits together, both good and bad.

Invariably the educational market share of for-profits will continue to decrease, but it may also stabilize at some point. UoP has already shrank considerably, but the main question is trying to determine what their stabilization point be. Once they stabilize, then they may become profitable again, even if they no longer have the lions share of the market. Supply, demand, cost and quality will be determinate factors in that equation over the next decade. For-profits have historically had the lions share of the online market, but that is obviously rapidly changing.

Non-profit state-run universities are now price-gouging tuition rates, even though they are subsidized with taxpayer monies. It's disgusting. For an MPA program, my local state university charges:
- $431 per in-resident credit
- $895 per online credit
In this instance, the state university is receiving taxpayer monies for the online courses while they concurrently charge for-profit prices. It's quite profitable.

 

The DETC schools that don't participate in Title IV funding tend to be cheap, but they are a very small minority of for-profit colleges. Even though they are relatively cheap, they are still unaffordable for many low-income students who can't afford to pay a couple of thousands of dollars a year out of pocket. Their payment plans don't come with the same protections as student loans. You often can't even receive your diploma and transcript until your balance is paid off. Then, there is the issue of transferring credits which many students don't realize until it's too late.

For-profit colleges rarely have entrance or placement exams, so how else are they screening their students? A few for-profits offer the first course free and will drop students who can't cut it, but these are very few. Remedial courses are also very rare at for-profit colleges. These colleges say that they are supposed to be helping students who can't get into traditional colleges, but are they really helping unprepared students by dumping them into costly, college-level courses? There are non-profits that don't require entrance or placement exams, but this is much more common at for-profits.

My school does have an entrance exam, but I question its validity because several instructors, including myself, have complained about having students who can barely read and write. Some instructors even have students who can't speak English very well.

It's different here in Texas. Our AAS programs are just like the AS and AA programs except they require more CJ courses and less gen ed. They don't lead to licensure as a law enforcement officer. One can attend a police academy at a community college while in an associate's program and even receive advanced standing for academy training, but these are two entities. Most CJ students, regardless of the type of associate's program, are not academy cadets. Texas does have four academic alternative programs, but I believe all of them are certificate programs. In order to challenge the TCOLE exam after completing an academic alternative program, one needs an associate's degree, but this degree can be in anything. The school I teach at only offers an AAS in CJ, but are students don't come out licensed or certified in anything.

The credits from the AAS programs do transfer to bachelor's programs, which is the case for most AAS programs in non-technical fields contrary to popular believe, but they transfer as individual courses. You may not get a block transfer and all of your gen ed requirements won't be satisfied, but your individual courses will still be applicable to a bachelor's degree.

Is that even possible? It might be for Kaplan, but probably not for UoP which is the spawn of Satan.