Need the DL perspective

I apologize if this is not the place to post this question, but to be honest I haven't yet found a place I could ask. I'm new to this site and have spent the last couple of days obsessively reading posts, looking for information.

I'm 40 years old and have 30 credits through St. Mary-of-the-Woods College WED (Women's External Degree) program. Although SMWC seemed to be a good program and I would recommend it to others, the cost of tuition and the particular format of their DL classes were not a good fit for me. In addition to my age, I have a husband and two children (one with high-functioning autism; one in recovery from clinical depression), and a part-time job.

I would eventually like to earn a doctorate in clinical neuropsychology. I have very little interest in mental health counseling and therapy, but I am fascinated by the way the brain controls the functions and behaviors of the body and mind. I might add here that I have read the Feb '99 issue of the Monitor. The amount of debt racked up by some students is frightening. But after trying to force my foot to fit into many shoes just to find a career field I felt passionately about, I have to pursue what really interests me, or why bother with a degree at all when I can just read widely at home? (Please don't flame me for this - I do see the value of a degree that isn't used for professional reasons and if money were no object I would already have my undergraduate degree. It's just that my practical nature will not allow me to put my family into debt for that reason alone.)

In order to finish my undergrad degree, I have several options. The first is to complete a traditional program in psychology. This is the least attractive option, not only due to the amount of student loan debt I would have to add to my already-scary total of $15,000 (the nearest public university near me is out-of-state, with no reciprocity, giving me an approximate cost of $9000/yr), but also because I have sensory/social difficulties that make constant interaction with others very stressful. (I don't mean to make this sound like a 'poor, pitiful me' story, just trying to be honest about the challenges I face in planning and trying to reach my goal.) That leaves DL as my best option for controlling my environment to minimize stress, maximizing my performance in classes, and allowing me to be a good wife, parent, and employee.

My main concerns are to save as much money and time as possible while gaining the knowledge and skills to be accepted into graduate school, and be able to handle doctoral-level work. My age, my financial situation (will be depending upon student loans for undergraduate work, and applying to programs who provide tuition/stipends for graduate work), and my family situation are major factors in whatever decision I make.

Would it be better for me to use CLEP/portfolio work to earn a degree as quickly as possible from one of the Big Three? (I am guessing that I could probably manage, with some independent study, to test out or demonstrate knowledge in enough areas to complete my degree in about a year's worth of actual classes.)
Or would it be better in terms of being accepted into programs in such a competitive field to find another DL school that is also known for its residential program that perhaps might not carry the DL "stigma"? (That stigma may be perceived entirely in my own mind, but I worry that it could be a factor to admissions committees nonetheless.)

My personal view and experience with DL is very positive (I'm helping my husband, who is a truck driver, find DL programs that will enable him to get his degree in transportation/logistics, if that's any indication of my viewpoint), I'm just not sure how the rest of the world feels.

I appreciate any advice provided, and apologize for such a long post.
Melissa

 

dl perspective

Good Morning, I read your posting and thought a good start would be an AA at TESC. You are half way there and there a some good low cost options at TESC. This would be a short term goal and give you a chance to look at all options for further work.
Please elaborate on the areas where you received credit. TESC currently accepts FEMA EMI credits which makes it fairly unique. These are taken for free. The transcripts are free. Have a peaceful weekend. Hille...Feel free to e-mail me .

 

Suse,

You have raised a number of issues and considerations that appear to require further exploration and clarification with a Professional Career Counselor. The issues you note indicate a significant degree of ambivalence (there isn't any negative connotation associated with this term) at this point as well as matters pertaining to personal barriers that you state may be an issue within the context of certain learning milieus.

Yes, posters can offer a number of helpful ideas and suggestions that they feel would be helpful. However, at this time it may be beneficial to meet with a career professional to sort out these issues, decide on the best courses of action relative to your unique situation, and to collaboratively develop a plan that would be congruent with your current situation and future needs.

Best of luck!

 

It sounds like your more immediate need is to complete a useful bachelor's degree. The gradute stuff can and will come later, and is hard to project this far out.

Hille's recommendation of TESC is a sound one. I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about the AA, though, because it will become irrelevant once you've earned a bachelor's.

The "Big Three" are ideally suited for those people with a lot more college credit than you've amassed. It is difficult to do a bachelor's degree with them from the beginning, although it can be done. (I did it.) But it can set you up with a roadmap to your degree, one with the flexibility to meet your degree requirements using a variety of methods, including testing and taking courses (either in a classroom or at a distance).

TESC may also be an apt choice because of its portfolio program, where you may be able to earn credits for life experience and the associated learning that came from it.

Doing a bachelor's degree by distance learning almost from scratch is a long and very expensive proposition in many cases. Of course, this might be cut down a bit if you successfully bid for life experience credit.

Another option is the University of South Africa. Taking correspondence courses with them is relatively inexpensive, and Americans have been able to do so successfully. There is at least one member of this board who is doing it; a search of the threads on the term "UNISA" might turn up information. Also, there are many Australian schools where you might want to study, again via distance learning.

Good luck.

 

Although with excellent intentions, there is significantly more involved in making any educational/career decisions than offering sugestions regarding specific educational programs. This is especially relevant when an individual is presented with a myriad number of considerations, as this poster notes. Therefore, it is not sufficient to merely present a number of potential degree programs without initially sorting out the factors that may negate a successful outcome.

So far, this poster has indicated that she has interest in Neuropsychology and ultimately wishes to pursue doctoral level education in this discipline. Questions that may be relevant for her to ask (herself) are as follows:

Do I enjoy reading about neuropsychology as an avocational interest or am I ready to pursue a degree program at this time? Have I thoroughly explored the occupational information relating to this field and spoken with practitioners to gain greater clarity as to the nature of the work and roles involved in this discipline? Do I have the aptitude and unquestionable motivation necessary to pursue undergraduate and graduate education in such areas as experimental psychology, advanced statistics and in writting a dissertation? Do my other life roles conflict with my studying for any degree at this time and to what extent? Do I have the financial resources or can I obtain them in order to achieve my goals? Do I possess the self-discipline necessary in DL education to complete this undertaking? Will my personal issues with sensory stress interfere with actualizing my goals and how can I cope with this issue with my adaptive strengths? Etc, etc.

These are only some of the issues that need to be successfully clarified and negotiated prior to considering any specific educational program. Yes, it is good to have objectives to strive for but in order to succeed one needs to take a realistic view of those factors that may assist or negate their success. Once again, a clearly delineated plan that relates to all the relevant issues that are confronting this individual would appear to be helpful prior to making any committment in the pursuit of a degree program at this time.

Good luck!

 

Thank you all very much for your thoughts.

I did post the information that wasn't absolutely necessary to ask the particular questions I had in mind in order to get some perspective, and the answers I received are thought-provoking and helpful.

It may well end up that I find that I am not capable enough to perform well in that demanding of a program, and it would certainly be more helpful if I could wait ten years until my kids are (hopefully) both off to college themselves. I am hoping that in the meantime, I can manage to at least earn the Bachelor's degree I would need in any case, and not be completely starting from scratch at age 50.

So I guess the question I originally posed still stands, although I hope I rephrase it better this time. When contemplating entering graduate school in a competitive discipline, do DL schools hurt one's chances of being admitted? And if so, are there steps that can be taken, such as choosing a particular school or designing your own program to more closely meet the standards of the graduate programs in which you are interested, that can mitigate any negative factors?

Thanks again,
Melissa

 

There is a great deal of evidence available to show that graduates of accredited DL programs go on to bigger and better things. However, Vault.com did a survey of HR professionals regarding DL degrees; they held them in lesser regard. But it was clear that this wasn't an intense dislike, and many didn't seem to know what they were talking about.

If you chose an accredited DL program, you should find further opportunities beyond it. You may or may not run into roadblocks, but I suspect those few and rare situations--which you might not even encounter--will be far outweighed by being able to take a DL degree vs. a residential one. Sometimes, its your only--or best--option, and you live with the occasional limitation. (I've never encountered any, but that could be because I pick my spots very carefully.)

Regarding Simon's post, I don't pretend to know about your personal situation, so I limit my advice to degrees and schools. I'm sure you can find competent guidance in those areas, should you desire it.

 

Hi Melissa,

I am glad that we were able to narrow the focus of your current needs relating to the value of a DL bachelors degree program in relation to possible future graduate studies. However, the issues relating to pursuing a DL bachelors degree necessitate your asking yourself what factors prevented you from completing your previous degree program at the school you mentioned in your initial posting? Will these same issues and factors present themselves in any other DL educational program that you may select?

In other words, have you clarified whether DL is the best option to meet your personal needs. This issue should be explored prior to being overly cioncerned regarding the value of a DL degree for possible utilization in the distant future!

It may be advantageous to first ensure that you meet the level of readiness and committment necessary to obtain an Associates or Bachelors degree rather than contemplating the difficulties a DL degree may pose ten to twenty years down the road.

In answer to your specific question, admission to graduate programs in Psychology at traditional schools are based on a myriad number of criteria. These include high grades, high scores on admission examinations, personal characteristics, related work experience, excellent professional and personal references, etc.

No one can state with certainty whether a DL Bachelors degree would negate their opportunities for admissions to a traditional graduate program in psychology. This is especially so if we are talking about ten years from now! However, if one were to pursue a DL bachelors degree it should be from a regionally accredited program.

Once again, good luck!

 

Response: It is not a matter of "pretending" to know about this poster's personal situation due to the fact that she clearly and comprehensively presented and elaborated those issues that were of concern to her in her initial posting!

As I initially suggested, it would be beneficial to discuss her issues and concerns with a professional Career Counselor. I noted questions that may be helpful to ask herself prior to seeking and entering a degree program. Otherwise, its like the aphorism states, "putting the cart before the horse".

 

Actually, I do know why that particular program didn't work for me. I found that *some* interaction with other students and the professor is helpful to my learning. So when I do enroll in classes, I will be looking for those that offer some sort of student and professor interaction (via boards such as this one or actual web classes).

Also, I will probably take some classes (sciences with labs, etc) at the nearest public university, and transfer those credits into my DL program.

Being a goal-oriented person, I find it motivating and helpful to make the best possible plan to reach my goals that I can at the time, and change as necessary down the road.

My first post, specifically in speaking of my personal circumstances, was probably a mistake. I'm so used to explaining my reasons for choosing DL that I did the same thing here, of all places. My apologies.


Thanks for your input,
Melissa

 

Hi melissa,

There is no need to apologize. You appear to be an intelligent person who is seeking the best means for achieving your educational goals.

Best of luck in your future endeavors.

 

Hi Melissa

First, welcome to Degreeinfo. I hope it is a help in your search. The people here have an amazing amount of information. I, like you, need to have a goal in mind even if it is not the ultimate destination. Somtimes over analyzing and planning things too far in advance is more of a hinderance than a help. Others may need that clear plan. Again welcome to Degreeinfo.

 

Originally posted by DaveHayden [/i]

Somtimes over analyzing and planning things too far in advance is more of a hinderance than a help.

Response:

Unfortunately, this is not the case with those individuals who have a pervasive pattern of not being able to attain their goals. Such individuals benefit from developing a graduated and clearly delineated plan of action that primarily focuses on their strengths and limitations and then develop clear interventions and timeframes that will enhance achievement of their objectives.

It is not a matter of over analyzing in situations such as these but in processing, sometimes with the assistance of a career counselor, a sequential and methodical means of reaching goals. Without such planning, in many cases, history repeats itself and the individual founders since there has been no change in approaching the problem from a more productive angle. I have seen a number of individuals spend many years of their lives in such circular activity and pursuit without leading to any resolution of their educational/career goals.

Yes, if an individual obsesses and "straddles the fence" excessively regarding making decisions as to which school to attend or what degree to pursue, this can possibly be termed a hindrance. However, not in the case of those who have histories of experiencing difficulty in attaining goals for a myriad number of reasons.

 

Hi Simon

I personally would likely disagree. I guess if it was stated that depending on the reason they previously had trouble completing their plans it may be neccessary. As you pointed out the excess planning itself may sometimes be the hinderance that keeps people from achieving their goals.

 

Hi Melissa,

Here’s a few musings about your situation. First off, I’m pleased you’ve read the articles in the Monitor, as they are eye opening. I see a lot of folk coming through who have just an enormous debt load. Students who attend university-based v. freestanding programs almost inevitably incur much less debt. Next, a specialization in neuropsychology is a long haul. A two-year postdoctoral residency on top of the basic internship is pretty much expected at this point. Your special needs, the sensory and social issues, bear attention in this equation. While there is something of a bias within the ranks that neuropsychologists are automatons who do nothing but test this is not the case. Depending on your position you may well be expected to engage in therapy with the person and his family. Moreover, sensory impairments may make it difficult to conduct psychometric assessments. You mention that you have no interest in psychotherapy and it is important to recognize that, in the end, neuropsychology is a clinical endeavor. One thing to consider is whether you might be better suited to study brain-behavior relationships in one of the non-applied areas of specialization like biopsychology or neuroscience.

That being said, there are a lot of roads to your goal which I hope may offer you some additional degrees of freedom. You really don’t need to major in psychology; I’ve had students from all sorts of backgrounds. So I’d encourage you to take a degree from a credible, definitely RA, program. In my experience persons whose bachelor’s degrees are in allied health enjoy a significant advantage in neuropsychology. I’m thinking of areas like nursing, speech path, occupational therapy, and physician’s assistant. These people are familiar with the medical milieu, many are familiar with brain-behavior relationships, and they hit the ground running. I have no data on this next musing but it seems to me that non-traditional students like yourself more often come through the freestanding programs so it might be helpful to have a skill you can sell to defray taking out loans. An example would be a BSN who works two 12-hour shifts on the weekend and gets paid for 40 hours. One thing I would encourage you toward is to avoid taking a foreign degree. There is so much competition for admission into doctoral programs -- especially university-based programs -- that I’m afraid it might not work in your favor.

The fact that you were in the WED program and your statement about not being eligible for in-state tuition at the closest university sounds familiar. It causes me to wonder if you’re in Illinois in one of the counties nearby but not adjoining Indiana where you’re not eligible for in-state tuition at ISU? It’s too bad St. Mary’s didn’t meet your needs; in fact, I’m familiar with one of the WED staff who recently resigned. However, I’ve learned through my own DL experience that all programs are not created equal. Since finding your niche has been something of a moving target I would echo Simon’s advice about consulting a career specialist. This doesn’t have to mean that a person has a PROBLEM! Often, even if one is 40, it may simply mean the person has yet to crystallize her vocational interests. A good place to start would be your local community college.

Lastly, and I recognize this is entirely anecdotal, but the next psychology intern I come across who did her BS by DL will be the first. Good luck and feel free to leave another post or contact me directly if you have other questions that a practicing psychologist who is privileged in neuropsychology might be able to help out with.

David

 

Is is Suse or Melissa?

Clearly David grasps these disciplinary subleties better than any of us. I have and old friend who earned his Ph.D in neuroscience,
then finished off his MD while doing his first post-doc, then did another before gaining a teaching post; he has done pure research, i.e., investigated fundamental problems in the field like the physiology of perception using animal models, first frogs, then. Meanwhile, his wife, also a Ph.D in neurosicence, worked for hospitals and foundations doing research and analysis on human populations--all without any medical background.

So how useful are David's generalizations--unless one has the vocational and income need to fill?
(See <http://www.tc.umn.edu/~peter/> and the link in the lower right to "Therese Amos.")
I wonder if these disparate experiences ans perceptions don't reflect the interdisciplinary melange of such a new field....?

NOW: to your more immidiate needs--
"Would it be better for me to use CLEP/portfolio work to earn a degree as quickly as possible from one of the Big Three? (I am guessing that I could probably manage, with some independent study, to test out or demonstrate knowledge in enough areas to complete my degree in about a year's worth of actual classes.)
Or would it be better in terms of being accepted into programs in such a competitive field to find another DL school that is also known for its residential program that perhaps might not carry the DL 'stigma'? (That stigma may be perceived entirely in my own mind, but I worry that it could be a factor to admissions committees nonetheless."

I have fretted over the same problem myself.
My sense is that whatever a B & M degree might have in advantage by wide or popular "recognition" is outweighed by the speed, low cost, and recognition that come from GPAs, test scores, and recommendations--all requisites for advanced training--that is gained from DL programs like Excelsior, when combined with proper classroom experience, labwork (or writing), and the credentials achieved thereby.

The name "Skidmore" is more widely recognized, but that carries little weight in the specialized grad world, since it's one comes from a small college among thousands, or else from a big university among thousands; the strength of the recommendations gained from known recommenders (i.e., known in the field one is applying to) matters much much more, and is, thus, more useful.

Therefore, in any sensible grad-oriented degree program, once one is junior (plus) level (since newer rec's outweigh old rec's), whatever credit science or lab experience (any research university needs these!) that can be turned into recommmendations is always worth more than a trad degree; the recommender him or herself is also being judged: the more the position of the recommender is recognized, or better still the person themsef is, the more weight it will have on any given grad application!

Hence, the best course one can have is to gain rec's from people who are known or esteemed to the neuropsych programs you want to be in. (See "Getting What You Came for : The Smart Student's Guide to Earning a Master's or a Ph.D. " the author, a Ph.D. in biology, gives extreemly useful advice in the earlier pages on just these details. Other grad-stud things are also useful for DLers: calendars, scheduling, filemaking, notetaking--and academic "stud" books!)

Neither the "stigma" of an accredited DL degree nor the inconvenience and cost of a B & M degree outweigh what one can gain more cheaply, and more certainly: take care of your stat's (GPA, test scores), take care of gaining desirable recommendations, and the latter will tip the balance. (There are addtional things to do, too--like contact and interview, if poss., the people who will evaluate one's grad app...but that's later.)

The only place the "name" of a trad degree matters more is if one is merely a young BA grad, seeking early or first jobs. I mean, if you were at Merrill Lynch or GE, and had to choose between a California Coast or Excelsior or Yale grad--who would you HAVE to choose?--i,e,m whose rep would be most to blame if the candidate did not work out? RIGHT--anyone from a no name school, and anyone who hired him or her over the Yalie.
Economists call these reputational effects for good reason: solid reps economize on information; whenever costs of retention or training are large, and info scarce, relie on the high rep choice.
For the same season, in any very very specialized realm like grad school, the recommendation--ceteris paribus-- outweighs other rep effects (or "stigma")!

When it comes to professional training, Law or Med school say, the choice between a high rep school like Skidmore--that has a solid rep of delivering successful candidates to business or law school amid huge numbers of apps-- the choice would be much dicier, and could well fall to Skidmore's advantage. On the other hand, if one supplements Excelsior with a few well-chosen summer or "winterim" courses, gaining excellent recommendations from well-known Cornell University profs--the result is likely to be a wash! (AND specially in public universities, given their lge and productive science faculties, one can gain the same even cheaper than Cornell--especially since in summer terms, most charge only in-state tuition, regardless from where one comes; the key in public Us is gaining access to Profs--NOT teaching assistants!)Except the latter result should be just as good, but considerably cheaper than the former.)

An accredited DL degree will be seen, at least outside of Maryland(isn't St Mary of the Woods there?), the same as Towson State. Other matters will matter more.


--Orson

 

It appears that there are quite a few perspectives and feedback to consider regarding this subject.

However, as noted in my earlier postings, there are some basic steps that would be beneficial prior to starting any new educational program when an individual is not certain regarding their goals and/or has had difficulty in implementing them, or has not met success in completing goals in the past.

First of all, one needs to gain clarification as to the appropriateness of their educational goals including whether their aptitude, interests, values and needs are congruent with the profession they are considering. Issues pertaining to time committments, dual role and familial responsibilities and financial needs also sould be explored.

Secondly, through exploration of occupational information and discussions with those in the field one may obtain greater understanding as to their "fit" into the discipline they are considering.

Third, are there any personal or other issues including medical that need to be considered and will these issues be a factor in the final choice of ones' educational selection.

Furthermore, one may need to speak with a knowledgeable friend, family member, mentor, or a professional career counselor in order to obtain feedback as well as other ideas as to their goals.

Some individuals will also need assistance in integrating this information and in making a final decision.

These steps are obviously not necessary for every individual who
is faced with making an educational choice. However, if the issue centers around years of moving from one educational program to another, or a history of not being able to complete goals, implementing them or make decisions, a different approach would be beneficial to consider.

Yes, anecdotal feedback of others' success and personal experiences are helpful in terms of providing encouragement. However, when all is said and done, the individual who is confronted with a long term issue of not achieving their objectives needs to develop a cogent and structured plan of action, possibly with assistance, to enhance their chances of success.

 

I feel a little as if I'd convicted myself of some heinous crime with my first post here.

The questions Simon raises are all good ones, ones I have considered in making a decision, and he offers some sound advice on strategies as well.

I might regret revealing this much more of my history but I have long functioned in the "real world." I was in clerical/customer service work for nearly 15 years before leaving to concentrate on my family. However, for me the work is unappealing, doesn't allow me to use my mental ability to anything approximating my potential, and places me in the middle of chaos (or worse, boredom) on a daily basis.

The constant interaction with co-workers is a factor. For example, how many of you have wondered as you walk down the hall past a person and then pass them upon your return if it's necessary to acknowledge their presence with a smile or remark each time you meet? For me, these small social questions are not instinctive; I have to make conscious decisions every time.

Strangely enough, in-depth connections with co-workers, clients, etc. are not nearly as stressful as multiple superficial contacts are in my case. The sensory issue comes into play here as well in that each person has a sort of indescribable presence, and I am somehow aware of that presence. Too many people, too much sensory input = stress.

I currently work part-time in a state-wide program that assists with family support and information issues. This allows me some small input into state policies, the ability to contribute to the good of others by researching and passing on information, and lets me use my creativity by writing and presenting workshops for parents. It's a great job, and I love it, but it has no future - no benefits, no retirement, and nothing besides part-time employment. I have to look beyond this to figure out what comes next.

Right now, I don't have the credentials to qualify for anything other than jobs I've already held. Certainly I wish that I had had this sort of self-knowledge back when I was younger and had no responsibilities, but I think that not having it sort of goes with the challenges that I do have.

I didn't rush into the choice of neuropsychology; it has gradually crept up on me as I learned more about my own particular interests and aptitudes. So for now my plan remains to study psychology at the undergraduate level, and re-examine my options and such barriers as arise as time goes on.

I appreciate the input from everyone.
Melissa

 

Hi Melissa,

Your openess to feedback and motivation to explore options demonstrate a definite commitment to achieving your goals. As I noted previously, you appear to be an intelligent person who is seeking a path to utilize your intrinsic abilities and aptitudes.

Please note that my previous postings were directed to a general audience of posters, many of whom are confronted with a myriad number of career related issues relating to appropriate educational selection and implementation.

I wish you the best in all your future endeavors