Fox News "Expert" With Cal Southern Doctorate

Fox News ‘expert’ suggests ‘homosexual impulses’ triggered Calif. mass shooting

Dr. Robi Ludwig went on Fox and said the recent California shooter had homosexual impulses, driving him to do the shooting. Now, this is a really outrageous conclusion, even more so since she's never treated him and doesn't know him at all. (Don't these people have any ethical standards?) There's something else.

She's a master's-level therapist with a doctorate from the former SCUPS (now Cal Southern). But she isn't licensed at the psychologist level. But the article calls her one, and I'm sure this isn't the only instance of such a mistake. This is why I feel it is unethical for people to use an academic title where it implies a professional one that isn't true.

I hold, um, a doctorate. But if I'm in a health care setting, I refrain from all use of the title "doctor" because it could leave the wrong impression. Yes, I'm a doctor, just as much as an MD. But in that setting, it could be misleading.

A therapist with a CSU doctorate calling herself "doctor" leaves people the impression she's a psychologist. That makes it unethical, even though it is technically true.

 

I don't agree. There is a distinction between a licensed psychologist and a psychologist. In my view anyone who even has a masters degree in psychology can call themselves a psychologist. I would even go so far as to say 18 hours of graduate work. It would be odd in the extreme to have people teaching psychology courses in higher education who could not call themselves psychologists.

Nor is this distinction unique to psychology. It occurs in counseling where there is a distinction between a counselor and a licensed professional counselor. There are many counselors employed in higher education--such as career counselors--who are not LPCs. I've never heard anyone question the ability of such individuals to call the themselves counselors or demand that the term be reserved for LPCs.

I can understand why you might be upset by the nature of her remarks but I do not find any ethical problem with her holding herself out as a psychologist. She is a psychologist--just not a licensed one.

 

While I have always argued that if one holds a graduate or post graduate degree in a field, he or she should be able to call him/herself the degreed title. For instance, one with a masters or doctorate in math is a mathematician. Same with scientist, philosopher, theologian, etc. However, calling oneself a "psychologist" is illegal if one isn't licensed in a state as it is a protected title. Dr. Ludwig, whom I really like, has always referred to herself as a "psychotherapist" which is legal in most states as a few states license "psychotherapists." Her book Till Death Do Us Part is a fascinating journey into the minds of killer spouses.

By the way, Ludwig's website refers to her as "a nationally known psychotherapist."

 

Interesting

It turns out that the legal situation is more complicated than I thought. In California it is against the law for a person to hold themselves out "to be trained, experienced, or an expert in the field of psychology" and not be licensed--and for the record that includes the title psychotherapist. That isn't the case in my state. In my state anyone can refer to themselves as a psychologist so long as they do not practice psychology or receive any compensation for their services. So obviously it varies state by state as to who can and cannot call themselves a psychologist, legally speaking. If she is a resident of CA she might have a problem, somewhere else probably not.

George Gamez, J.D., Ph. D. Law/Psychology/Music » Blog Archive » Who can use the term

Here's a link covering the law in CA.

 

And here in Indiana, she wouldn't even be allowed to use "Psy. D." unless licensed as a psychologist.

 

There are many fields in which the professional license -- not the college degree -- confers the professional title. Suppose, for example, that someone has a valid law degree, but had never passed the bar exam (it happens). That person would have no more legal authority than any other average citizen -- he would not, for example, be able to claim the attorney-client privilege. So would it make sense for him to use the title of "lawyer" or "attorney"? No -- and no state bar would allow it. Such a person would have a law degree, but would not be a "lawyer".

Conversely, it is possible in some states to qualify for the bar through work experience ("apprenticeship") alone, without attending law school. If such a person passes the bar exam (it happens), then that person would be a "lawyer", but would not have a law degree.

The point is that the professional degree, the professional license, and the professional title can be independent. They usually go together, but not always.

 

It's called Homicidal not Homosexual! Homicidal ideation that led to actualization. Very sad indeed! After the Colorado tragedy one would think Healthcare providers have a responsibility to notify proper law officials about patients with homicidal ideation as to protect the general public! I realize the mentally ill patient hasn't committed a crime for "conceptualizing it" but they are a potential threat and need to be monitored. Any thoughts? Especially from our legal types.

 

From Robi Ludwig's FB page:

"I was misunderstood on @FoxNews this weekend, when I was asked to hypothesize several factors which could have triggered ‪#‎ElliotRoger‬ 's spree killing. I in NO way meant to indicate being a homosexual or having homosexual impulses is a cause for spree killing. My job on @judgejeanine was to assess several possible triggers for #ElliotRoger and his behavior ‪#‎peace‬ ‪#‎forequalrights‬ However, I apologize to all those who felt offended. That was never my intention."

 

reply

Where did you hear/read that one cannot use their Psy.D degree unless they are licensed as a psychologist? I have an LCSW and am a PsyD. This it not stated in any statute that I can locate.

 

It depends on what you mean by "use their Psy.D degree" There's this from the statutes of New Jersey (that might be relevant to you, right?)

"State Board of Psychological Examiners Law LAW AND PUBLIC SAFETY
Revised 2/21/13 Page 2
L.1966, c. 282, s. 4.
45:14B-5. Use of title or description by unlicensed person
Commencing January 1, 1968, no person who is not licensed under this act shall represent himself
to be a licensed practicing psychologist, use a title or description, including the term "psychology," any
of its derivatives, such as "psychologist" or "psychological" or modifiers such as "practicing" or
"certified," in a manner which would imply that he is licensed under this act, or offer to practice or
practice psychology as defined in this act, except as otherwise permitted in sections 6 and 8. The use by
a person who is not licensed under this act of such terms, whether in titles or descriptions or
otherwise, is not prohibited by this act except when in connection with the offer to practice or the
practice of psychology as defined in section 2(b) of this act. Use of such terms in connection with
professional activities other than the rendering of professional psychological services to individuals for a
fee, monetary or otherwise, shall not be construed as implying that a person is licensed under this act
or as an offer to practice or as the practice of psychology."

 

Calling physicians "doctors" is a somewhat new phenomenon. To avoid confusion, simply return to the original designation e.g. physician. LOL

 

A psychology license makes you a licensed psychologist. A degree in psychology makes you a psychologist.

As I pointed out in the other thread where we had this debate, the state of New York's Office of Mental Health has a position called "Associate Psychologist" which is an unlicensed person who is required to hold a doctorate in psychology. That means that throughout state psychiatric institutions from Buffalo to Staten Island there are people walking around with a name tag that contains the post-nominals "Psy.D." and the title "Associate Psychologist" with absolutely zero license.

Granted, the associate psychologist works under the direction of a licensed psychologist, but the point stands. Licensed psychologists have a role in the realm of healthcare.

A masters level mental health counselor with a PsyD is a psychologist. Just like the countless unlicensed psychologists who teach, consult, publish and even see clients for reasons other than diagnosing mental disorders and providing treatment for the same.

It doesn't actually compare to an MD. Especially not with the dual issues you are raising.

1. Being called "doctor"
2. Using the post-nominals "Psy.D."

Two very, very different issues.

My wife sees a nurse practitioner who has a Doctor of Nursing Practice. You want to talk about confusion? Walk into a hospital and technically everyone is a "doctor" these days. The physical therapist (required a bachelors when I was in school), the nurse practitioner, the physician assistant (which was available as an associate degree program when I was in school) and the pharmacist all have the same legal right to call themselves "doctor." Yet, I've not heard of a single instance where a patient walked into a pharmacy, dropped his pants and asked the pharmacist to identify the strange rash on his backside.

Why?

While in certain situations it could be confusing to have non-physicians be doctors in a clinical setting it really isn't 99% of the time.

When you select a healthcare provider, do you walk down the hall of a hospital looking for a person in a white coat? Do you just yell out "Hey, Doctor!" and see who turns around? Of course not. If you're anything like me you first check to see who your insurance plan covers. Then you check credentials, specializations etc.

So I'm afraid I have to call nonsense (or "poppycock" if you don't mind the foul language) on your continued assertion that a licensed mental health counselor with a Psy.D. is misleading people. I have never met a person who sought the aid of a licensed psychologist and made that selection based solely on the post-nominals. Search your insurance plan for a psychologist and it is sorting people based upon professional license, not academic degree. That means you may very well find a licensed psychologist who has a masters (and was grandfathered in from when such a thing was possible) while a search for a Licensed Clinical (or Master) Social Worker could yield a licensed social worker with a doctorate (which is not required for licensure). In short, post-nominals are not advertising. And post-nominals are not how people select their mental health provider. People select them based upon specific need (i.e. I might go to a Licensed Marriage and Family counselor if I want marriage or family therapy) or, much more commonly, by referral.

And, in a clinical setting, I have never met a therapist who insisted upon being called "doctor." If John Wilkes Booth, PsyD insists that I call him "Doctor Booth" during a therapeutic session.

As for you not using your title in a healthcare setting I'm not exactly sure what your example means. My doctor's office has a space for preferred title. So if you want your bills to be sent to "Dr. Neuhaus" you can go ahead and do that. Circling the little "Dr." does not mean that a team of medical students are going to rush into the exam room and request your expertise. Yes, if Dr. Rich Douglas wore a white lab coat and a stethoscope around his neck while wandering the halls of SUNY Upstate Medical Center I can see why people might be misled. But I think you are mentally crafting an incredibly unrealistic scenario whereby everyone in a healthcare setting uses their title so exclusively that it causes mass chaos as no one can separate the physicians from the PhDs.

 

...everyone wants to be called a "Dr."...when will it ever end?

 

For some of us, I guess never....

 

Thank you. Could not have said it better myself. I am getting a lot of heat from psychologists on student doctor network forums as they don't feel an LCSW with a doctorate should refer to themselves as doctor. They say it is misleading. I can't make that connection but then psychologists tend to find problems with other mental health professionals.

 

Here's a little bit of trivia cutting-and-pasting from Wikipedia:

The widespread use of requiring a medical doctorate (MD) for physicians is somewhat new to the 20th Century. The same is true for the juris doctorate. In the early part of the 20th Century, there were many medical and legal practitioners who only had a bachelors degree. It was commonplace.

Trivia question: So before medical degree inflation occurred, why were holders of medical bachelors degrees addressed as "doctor" when they didn't have a medical doctorate?

 

To the poster who stated on cannot use the Psy.D (in Indiana) if they are not a licensed psychologist. I spoke with the Indiana Board of Psychology and the assistant director stated this is not true. Legally, I can use whatever degree I have obtained that the state recognizes. They just recommended I put LCSW after PsyD to make things more clear and, of course, not to refer to myself as a psychologist.

 

Here's a little trivia cutting-and-pasting from your cutting-and-pasting:

So, I fail to see how this supports your earlier statements that physicians being styled as "doctor" is new or novel. It appears you may have misread what you've quoted.

 

When and why did it become the norm to address non-doctoral holders as "doctor" in the medical field?