Why it's Unfair to Compare Community College Graduation Rates to For-Profits

In a quest to prove someone wrong on another forum, I came across a great article. For a long time, I have argued that the low community college graduation rates should not be compared to those of for-profit, 4-year colleges. The main reason for this is that many people intentionally transfer to 4-year colleges before graduating with their associates degrees. I'm currently a PhD student, but I am considered a dropout at two community colleges.

Reverse-Transfer Programs Reward Students and Colleges Alike - Commentary - The Chronicle of Higher Education

 

Hmm.. I don't know. I know that Community Colleges often practice the same student loan heavy tactics that are frowned upon with FP schools. If it is just data, it seems like it would be a fair comparison. The fact that some feel higher rates are justified, or explained with other data, well I would only consider that if it could be proven not theorized.

 

Community Colleges and for-profits tend to serve economically disadvantaged students. The difference between the two is that a grant usually more than covers the tuition at a community college. Taking out student loans for living expenses is the student's choice. At for-profit colleges, the student loan is often necessary to just cover tuition. Yes, community colleges are heavily subsidized by state and local taxes, but that is the reason why they don't have to chase after student loans. The student loans aren't going to the CC; they are going into the student's pocket.

The end goal when attending college is often the bachelor's degree. Since one cannot earn a bachelor's degree at 99.9% of community colleges, then one has to transfer. So, why would someone compare the graduation rates of 4-year for-profits to those of community colleges? How many people attend 4-year for-profits with the intention of transferring?

 

Wait wait wait, are you saying that cc dropout rates are high because they transfer to for profit schools?

 

No, they are higher than they should be because many people attend CCs with the intention of transferring to 4-year colleges.

 

Hmm. All I can tell from the article is that that is a theory, they don't manage to produce numbers to suggest that this is a statistically significant group..

 

It's a theory that many hold because community colleges/states are starting to offer reverse transfer programs. These programs try to get those working on their bachelor's (and even those who have already graduated with their bachelor's) to transfer back and finish their associates. Just google "reverse transfer," and pages of results will come up.

 

At the community college where I work, it would depend on how the student is classified. If they are in a degree program and then leave, then they might count as a drop out. If they are listed as taking courses for "personal satisfaction" or "upgrading work skills" or something like that, then they're not counted.

As an aside, our CC doesn't accept federal student loans because the default rate has been too high.

-Matt

 

I figured only degree-seeking students were counted. I attended as a degree-seeking student for financial aid purposes.

 

I would bet that your CC had students taking out the max in loans even though they only needed zero to a few thousand dollars to cover tuition and books with or without grants. When a student takes out $8-10k in loans, that money does not go to the community college.

 

Yes, they do, but the stats don't even attempt to categorize students making them inaccurate.

 

This is a widely recognized issue with community colleges. Unfortunately there's little resolution, as the merits of this metric are still being debated by opposing philosophies and beliefs. The week prior I attended a professional development course where we briefly discussed the issue. When I return to the office next week, I'll check and see if I still have some of the paperwork on it.

I can honestly state that I'm not aware of any community colleges which practice the same student loan heavy tactics favored with the more unsavory of the for profit schools.

While it certainly is "just data", it's viewed as an unfair comparison for a variety of reasons. First and foremost is the non-selective, open enrollment policies of community colleges versus traditional institutions. Followed by the students of community colleges often being more socio-economically disadvantaged. Another major discrepancy is that many community college students do not have end goals which fit this metric, and are therefore considered "failures" even though they "succeeded" with their goals.

That's quite interesting and something I've not heard of. Thank you for sharing that, I'm going to look into it further next week!

I believe that's how the metric is determined, but as you alluded to, students often sign up as degree seeking in order to be eligible for financial aid and grants. This is in addition to the infrequent but still occurring scam of people enrolling into community colleges in order to obtain student loans, than immediately dropping out.

 

I have proof!

New figures suggest community college grad rates higher than thought | Hechinger Report

Thank you and goodnight.

 

This isn't proof it is slanted statistics. Just look at this subtle positioning: "Of the estimated one in four students who start at community colleges.." When was that the argument? Why just ones that start there, why not all students. What percentage start at CC's? Does this count CDL students who want a career change to truck driving in their mid-thirties? People who after 10 years of being a line cook want to transition to being a personal chef? Who knows! Lack of proof and playing games with numbers does not constitute proof of anything, other than to be fair a real desire to be right (which is fine).

 

If you actually read and understood the article, it said that if you count the CC students who earn at least 30 credits and continue on to finish a bachelor's degree, the CC graduation rate would be closer to 40% instead of 18%. You decided to focus on the part of the article you mentioned above instead of the most important statistic. I'm still waiting for you to show proof that CCs are being predatory with student loans. Your graduation rate statistic is completely irrelevant to that assumption.

Graduation rates only count first-time students; they do not include transfer students. The National Clearinghouse only looked at a 6-year outcome. The conventional graduation rate also looks at graduation rates after 150% of the time it should take to finish. That is 3 years for CCs and 6 years for 4-year colleges.
http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/about/media_center/press_releases/files/release_2013-08-06.pdf

 

Graduation rates are proof of enrollment practices. Period. You can ignore that all you want but it is true. CC's have low graduation rates. 18%. That is just a fact its even in the article.

You want to pretend that finishing at another school should get every prior school off the hook for student success. I don't buy it. You only want to focus on data that you like, as opposed to all data. Fine, we're at a standstill in the conversation. I believe facts, you believe what you want, it really is fine with me I'm not here to help enlighten anyone about anything I just enjoy the discussions. When they become redundant I move on. That's where we are now.

 

No, you want to ignore logic. Any logical person knows that a CC should not be punished for failures that aren't actually failures. If the end goal is a bachelor's degree, then you aren't going to get one at a CC, period. Why should a 2-year college be punished for having students who want a 4-year degree? That makes no sense.

 

If you enroll to get a degree, and then don't get that degree, its a drop out. If you get a better degree good for you, but you still dropped out of the program you enrolled in. If you can't see that I can't help you.