Tenure, should it be abolished?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Phdtobe, Nov 15, 2013.

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  1. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

  2. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Tenure is the main motivator for people going into full time PhD residential programs. The reality is that most professor positions pay about the same or less than positions that require only a Master's in industry. If tenure is abolished, this will kill most of the PhD programs unless Universities compensate with more money the lack of tenure and the high risk of not getting it due to scarcity of new tenure track positions. I really doubt that academia could afford higher salaries; as it is, many business programs have a hard time staying alive due to the high cost of professors' salaries.

    On the other hand, people once they get tenure, they become lazy. At least at my department, professors with tenure do not publish as much as they tend to have low teaching evaluations. You become relaxed because you know you have job security and do less work than before tenure, this is expensive for the school that needs to pay more for less and compensate this by having to pay less to adjuncts.
     
  3. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    For some reason, discussion on this issue seems to assume that tenure track positions are the only sort of full time faculty positions that are possible in academia. There's no reason faculty members can't be hired to do exactly what they do now for exactly the same amount, just without the guaranteed-job-for-life aspect that tenure brings.
     
  4. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    The main reason is to promote academic freedom. Most people will tend to just follow the boss if their jobs are threaten by possible non renewals of contracts.

    The non tenure jobs will work for teaching positions that just need to follow a text book they might not work for positions that require research that might not be approved by the chair or colleagues.

    This could be good or bad, some people for example specialize in doing research on how to produce mathematical models that explain the behaviour of Wikipedia or Twitter (I find this kind of research kind of useless) while other people specialize in producing research to find the cure for cancer.

    There is no win to win situation with tenure, but if abolished some things will suffer.
     
  5. Phdtobe

    Phdtobe Well-Known Member

    I am not sure if this is correct for designated accountants. Acountants make decisions bases on GAAP. Accountants are less worried about their bosses but more about discipline from their associations, and from shareholders. There are few isolated events and these people are in jails and have lost their license. Renewal of contracts is hardly a reason to go along with a boss. It works the other way, it a good reason for accountants to not renew their contracts.
     
  6. BobbyJim

    BobbyJim New Member

    It works pretty much the same for licensed professional engineers. What the boss says is just another input - but the engineer is legally responsible for the project and following generally accepted guidelines – no matter what the boss says. This can cause some tension at times but the boss isn't taking the total liability hit for failures.
     
  7. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    There is a huge difference between accountants and professors. A professor knows that if he or she is let go, it won't be easy to find another similar job and most know the harsh career as an adjunct so the fear of losing a job is there. An accountant can easily switch jobs if he or she feels that is being pressure to cook numbers.

    Also, if you caught doing something illegal, you can lose your license. The license is more valuable than a job in industry for an accountant.
     
  8. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    Oh, academia could damn well afford to pay higher faculty salaries; all they would need to do to come up with the money is to pay the educational administrators what they're really worth, which is nothing.
     
  9. foobar

    foobar Member

    Academic Freedom is definitely an issue for academic accountants. An academic might wish to conduct research on how corporations (large donors in dean parlance) abuse GAAP. A dean may inappropriately wish to direct research results towards his/her view of the world.

    Also, GAAP isn't as clear cut as you imply. It is relatively simple for a knowledgeable and determined CFO to significantly move their bottom line numbers around.
     
  10. mattbrent

    mattbrent Well-Known Member

    I work in the Virginia Community College System and we don't have tenure. I don't mind, though. I love my job, and the opportunities that come with it. I'm only ranked as an assistant professor at the moment, but if I can get to full professor in about 6 years, I'll actually make a comparable salary to some four year folks, at least in Virginia.

    -Matt
     
  11. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Matt, what sort of research expectations are there with VCCS, and what's the typical teaching load for full time faculty?
     
  12. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    One thing is clear, whether you support tenure or not: the tenure system has been severely weakened over the past few decades, because tenured positions are steadily being replaced by adjunct positions.

    This trend shows no signs of stopping or reversing. In another few decades, I expect that tenure will only be the norm at the "top schools", i.e. flagship state universities, selective private universities, and selective liberal arts colleges. Tenure will become increasingly rare to non-existent at the "average schools", i.e. community colleges, second-tier state universities, unselective private schools, online schools, etc. Any tenured profs that do remain at the "average schools" will be increasingly concerned with administration (managing an army of low-paid, part-time adjuncts with high turnover) rather than actually teaching.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 16, 2013
  13. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    One way to see the relationship between tenure and academic freedom is to look at conservative religious colleges. Such schools, in general, do not value unlimited academic freedom -- professors are expected to stay within certain intellectual boundaries. And such schools are among the most likely to deny professors the protection of tenure:

    For example, Liberty University offers its "non-tenured teaching faculty" as one of ten "Liberty University Distinctives". So the absence of tenure is being promoted as a selling point. The implied advantage is: "At Liberty University, we can fire the teachers if they get any weird ideas".
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 16, 2013

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