Do you want fries with that?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Kizmet, Aug 5, 2013.

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  1. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2013
  2. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator

    Soon, universities will be offering graduate degrees in hamburnetics, frytistics and the hydrology of carbonated liquids. The tuition will have to be really low, though.
     
  3. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    It's not a "small joke", it's a sarcastic and to my mind profoundly anti-intellectual dismissal.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2013
  4. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    I gotta jump in with Bill on this one.

    I've taken great pains recently to make distinctions around scholarship and practice. There's a reason for that.

    It is essential for the advancement of mankind that we push the envelope of knowledge into new territories. We do that with scholarly research. Practice is fine, and good practice finer. But the advances made in practice are more and better of the same.

    Marty Linsky and Ron Heifetz make distinctions around "technical" and "adaptive" challenges: technical challenges, when solved, return the situation to normal. But adaptive challenges require new thinking and new solutions. That's where the best leaders thrive, and that's where new knowledge is created. This distinction is useful in academia, too.

    Many bachelor's and master's degrees are awarded in practice areas designed to prepare people for careers. Some of these are based in academic disciplines (like sociology, for example) and others are not (like project management). We're even seeing some professional doctorates along the same lines. But for those areas rooted in academic disciplines, they get better when scholarship advances them. This is the current dilemma facing my discipline, human resource development.

    But not all academic disciplines necessarily prepare people for careers. Still, the advances made in those areas benefit humankind. Denigrating that is, well, rather small-minded. And it doesn't require one to do a Ph.D. to understand this.

    A really important distinction made by Bill:

    Yes, but again, it's small-minded thinking. Note that, invariably, those posting such notions see themselves as adjuncts, teaching part-time. This fits with that lack of understanding of scholarship I'm talking about. Instead of seeing themselves as future scholar-practitioners, using the doctorate to advance their disciplines' academic and practice, they instead want to know if the degree in question will qualify them to teach (and how much it will pay).

    Too bad.
     
  5. 03310151

    03310151 Active Member

    I'd be interested to know if any universities have ever polled their students to find out why they attend college? I'm wondering how many would say for a "career" and how many would say "scholarly research".

    When everyone at the college is on the same page, as in they all think the same, socially, politically and economically how much envelope pushing are we really doing? In other words if Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity get together to push the envelope of knowledge through research, will their thinking be challenged? Nope. Same goes in many school environments.

    I wanted to go to school in order to improve my chances for a career to support my family, but I do realize some people go to school to "learn" and advance knowledge. I certainly don't knock 'em if thats what they are doing.

    The fry joke? IDK, I believe that "The less confident you are, the more serious you have to act."
     
  6. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    It's too bad that you went to the trouble to edit my post because you deliberately made it sound like I actually believe this. If you had included the rest of my post you would have made it clear that I do not. This is simply a joke. There are jokes about engineers (it's that Dilbert thing) and Doctors and Lawyers and virtually any other profession (you should hear what welders have to say about plumbers). Lighten up a bit.
     
  7. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    An informal poll was conducted in a Sociology 101 course, of about 50 students, that I worked in this past semester. 100% of the students said they were "there to get a job." When the teacher probed for more details, less than 5 of them added "well, also to learn a little something or whatever..." while the rest couldn't have cared less.

    Obviously, I couldn't say whether or not it was indicative of how students feel in general, but it was telling for that one institution I'm employed by. It's one of the reasons I really don't want to be there anymore. The student really don't want to learn, and show it with every word they say and every action they take (or most often refuse to take), including loud groans and complaints whenever the instructor asks them to do any work at all or gives them any hard deadline.

    Again, it's just one school, but it adds fuel to the burning question of how common that attitude is.
     
  8. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    What do welders say about plumbers?
     
  9. Petedude

    Petedude New Member

    Amen to that. No one should venture into humanities studies anymore as a freshman unless they (1) really love the subject and (2) don't mind getting sucked into endless debt at mind-numbingly low wages.
     
  10. Shawn Ambrose

    Shawn Ambrose New Member


    Or C - CLEP as much as possible to avoid the endless debt. My daughter is graduating in December with a degree in Art - and she's only 4K in debt.
     
  11. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    In general welders insult the intelligence of plumbers. This probably comes from the fact that most plumbers make more money than most welders. Envy.
     
  12. ryoder

    ryoder New Member

    Physical therapists rip on chiropractors.
     
  13. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

    I don't know about the welders. But as an electrician we always called the plumber a "turd wrestler" :)
     
  14. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    The worst I've ever been called is a "Terminator." :AR15firing:

    (profession: Interpreter)
     
  15. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    In shipyards welders frequently work alongside plumbers and electricians. Welders generally like electricians because those "spark jockeys" keep us in business. We're all about electricity.
     
  16. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Because the U.S. lacks a strong qualifications framework, we push just about every kid towards college. (The community colleges are evidence of that.) So sure, college is the destination for starting a career. But universities are far more than this. Yes, teachers teach. Students study. But researchers also research. And all of them began as undergraduates.

    Oh, and lots and lots of people who take undergraduate degrees in non-vocational areas do just fine in vocations. And if you want to see what a "university" looks like when it only teaches vocationally related courses, take a look at UoP, Strayer, and dozens of others of the same ilk.
     
  17. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

    $15 an hour to flip burgers? Maybe if you're the manager.
     
  18. Rich Douglas

    Rich Douglas Well-Known Member

    Or maybe if you want a living wage.

    We have a challenge in this nation. We can continue down the path we're on. That means an ever-widening gap between the "haves" and the people who serve them. Or we can find ways to share in the wealth of this nation a bit more equitably.

    And no, this isn't a "makers" vs. "takers" argument. That's always been a bunch of nonsense. This is about protecting human rights. Life isn't a race, where all the contestants start from the same place. The wealthiest in this nation have the rest of us to thank for their lofty statuses. Without this nation's resources, its laws, its services, etc., those people would not have what they have.

    It's time to pay people for serving us. It's time for a strengthening of the middle class--which, by the way--actually increases the wealth of the rich even more! (Yes, the gap narrows, but a rising tide lifts all boats.)

    We should honor honest labor by paying for it.
     
  19. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    ---- :haha:---- :notworthy: ---- :haha: ---- :notworthy: ---- :haha:

    Then again, I'm sure you remember this: http://www.aboutmcdonalds.com/mcd/corporate_careers/training_and_development/hamburger_university.html

    As well as McXcelsior College's partnership with them http://www.excelsior.edu/c/document_library/get_file?uuid=42ffdad7-ff5c-4d91-95b6-a490102b6e37&groupId=12408

    I used to be a manager. Oh, not just a manager. I had a specialized skill that the company required certification for. My responsibilities included directly operating and performing maintenance and repairs on a vital set of no less than 14 machines simultaneously, while monitoring floor staff, assisting my GM with record keeping and maintaining two completely separate, but complete in their own right, sets of inventory. My hourly wage? Oh, GUESS!!!!!

    $10/hr. That is, after a number of raises. Life is rough for a recent high school grad with no parental support. Seriously.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 6, 2013
  20. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    What does that mean, exactly? Who defines what a living wage is? Does it factor in people's individual needs, the difference in costs of living in different area, and all that? Or is it simply a rhetorical flourish?

    The gap is completely irrelevant. There's no problem at all that wealthy people have access to lots of stuff. The problem is when people who are willing to work cannot meet the needs of their families for decent food, clothing, shelter, and transportation.

    Funny, because that's what the other side says too.

    While many wealthy people have their own ingenuity to thank for their place in life, I've come to think that many of them, if not the majority, have the state to thank, in that executives of large corporations work with government policy makers for mutual advantage. So yes, in a sense they do have laws to thank, although perhaps not in the way you were intending.

    Since Jeff Bezos is in the news today I'll use him as an example. He's richer than Croesus, and got that way by founding the most successful online store back when nearly anyone with an idea could get in on a relatively unregulated Internet. Now that he's gotten rich enough from this that he can afford to buy a major newspaper essentially as a form of conspicuous consumption, he's supporting a policy sea change that sales taxes should apply regardless of where the seller is located and regardless of whether the seller has any facilities in the state to which merchandise is being shipped. He's not some committed leftist doing this for lofty ideological reasons, he's doing this because having walked through door that was open in the earlier days of the Internet he now wants to close it behind him to make it harder for competitors to follow in his footsteps.

    And that's the problem with political power. You may want to use it to redistribute wealth from those who have it to those you think are more deserving, but if it's strong enough to do that then instead it gets used by the unscrupulous for their own advantage, and since they don't care what damage that does for opportunity for those who come after, more harm than good ends up being done to those still lower down the ladder.

    We should each do what we think is best. By all means, please feel free to start a business and pay people better wages than your competitors will. You're sure to have your selection of employees, at least.
     

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