Ultimate proof of the validity of a degree?

Dear posters,

Both my wife and I are (proud) graduates of American Universities. We left the United States several years ago to resume with our lives in The Netherlands. We have noticed that, in general, American degrees were welcome and appreciated in both the academia and the industry here in Europe. My wife, after months of searching around, is now seeking admission in a PhD program in a European University.

To our surprise the admissions office at this University is asking my wife to have her degrees notarized by the US Secretary of State Department, as specified by the The Hague Convention, that the US and most of the civilized world signed for mutual recognition of academic degrees. (I must point out as we live in the EU, they do not require this procedure for her British MSc degree) Apparently the Secretary of State has to attach a so-called apostile to the diploma to ascertain that the US government declares that degree to be valid and legitimate. Then the other signing countries accept it as valid.

I wonder if the Secretary of State would attach this apostile to all type of degrees, or only to those which are regionally accredited. I am afraid that this would put an end to many discussions seen in this board about the legitimacy of many dubious degrees or even unaccredited degrees. Does anyone know if the secretary of state dept. would stamp a degree from non regionally accredited universities, say for instance, Northcentral University?

Thank you very much in advance for your replies

 

This, from the U.S. Department of State website, explains the procedure for obtaining the apostille:

I. COLLEGES, UNIVERSITIES AND OTHER POST-SECONDARY INSTITUTIONS

(A) STATE CHAIN CERTIFICATION METHOD

1. Obtain from the registrar of the University an official true copy of the credentials bearing the seal of the university. The registrar should then execute an affidavit attesting to the validity of the document before a notary public in the registrar's office or elsewhere at the university. Frequently the business office of colleges and universities have notaries public.

2. Take the document to the clerk of court of the county wherein the notary was licensed or commissioned to obtain a notarial certificate suitable for use abroad.

3. Transmit the document, with the notarial certificate to the state Secretary of State for application of the state seal.

4. Send the document to the Authentications Office of the Department of State, 518 23rd Street, NW State Annex #1, Washington, DC 20520. A fee of $5.00 dollars per document should accompany the request in the form of a check or money order made payable to the Department of State.

5. Authenticate the document at the foreign embassy.

(B) DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CHAIN CERTIFICATION METHOD

1. If the university is located in the District of Columbia, obtain from the registrar of the university an official true copy of the credentials, a statement, executed by the registrar, attesting to the accuracy of the credentials and have that statement notarized by a notary public in the registrar's office, business office or elsewhere in the University.

2. Proceed to the District Building, 717 14th Street NW, Room 230 and obtain a formal notarial certificate for foreign use.

3. Send the document to the Authentication Office of the Department of State for application of the Department 's seal.

4. Authenticate the document at the foreign embassy.

Since the process takes you through state or D.C. officials, who must attest to the legality of the documents, I suspect that only institutions authorized to grant degrees in the various states or the District of Columbia would be endorsed. That, of course, does not exclude non-RA/DETC schools, as long as they are authorized by law to grant degrees.


Tracy<><

 

It is worthy to note that the U.S. no longer requires apostilles for those who wish to use credentials from overseas:

PROVISO: Effective January 1, 1983, the U.S. Deparment of State and our embassies and consulates abroad ceased to authenticate or provide certified true copies of academic credentials, transcripts or degrees. The U.S. Department of Education determined at that time such documents are not required in the United States for persons who studied abroad who wish to attend primary or secondary school, or college in the United States.

I suspect that the U.S. government took this action because it wished to leave it up to the schools to determine for themselves whether or not a particular foreign credential would be acceptable for admission or transfer of credit.

Tracy<><

 

After reading the information that Tracy helpfully posted, it seems to me that the function of these apostiles is to verify that a diploma is genuine and not forged, rather than to verify that the university that granted it had acceptable accreditation.

Perhaps in nations with only a small number of state-run universities, one can automatically assume that a genuine diploma is a legitimate diploma. But in the States, where pretty much anyone can start a legal university, that's not a safe assumption.

 

In a separate thread is a story about a person who used a fake diploma from cooldegree.com to get a job in New Zealand as CEO of Maori TV. He nearly got away with it, as the following story reveals: MTS news release: Maori TV board satisfied with recruitment of CEO.

Snippets:

• A review of the recruitment process, yesterday and today, shows that the checks carried out at the time and since met the Board's requirements sufficiently to proceed with an appointment. ... Mr Davy has supplied a copy of his MBA degree, from the Ashland School of Business at Denver State University granted in June 1976. ... In conclusion, Mr Fox says that the checks carried out to date enabled the Board to proceed, and the work carried out by Mr Davy so far in the start up stage of Maori TV has been pleasing. "I hope this will now lay to rest and allow us to get on with establishing the channel."

 

U.S. APostile

Dear posters, thank you very much for your replies.

In a way it is very disappointing to read your comments. In one hand, the U.S. Government seems to encourage enrolment in regionally accredited institutions, but it also provides official proof of legitimacy to universities that are not accredited at all.

Thus for a foreigner, it does not really matter which university to attend in the USA (quality matters apart) if after all the US Dept. of State will attach its apostile anyway. Isn't this deceptive to the rest of the nations that signed the Hague Convention? Or are there two kinds of apostiles to separate good from bad universities, to differentiate proper from less than optimal education?

This accreditation system that is practiced in the United States seems to be inferior to that used in Europe in general (made by the respective governments Department of Education). In Europe everyone knows when a University is legit or not because the governments decides whether or not a university can provide tuition. Otherwise its operations are ilegal (if they claim to confer legal degrees)

 

Re: U.S. APostile

This is a topic that has been discussed before. While the U.S. system is lax compared to, say, the U.K. system it also allows innovation and competitiion the U.K. doesn't. Is one better than the other? That is hard to answer and can be argues both ways. Personally I favor the more creative U.S. model. Also, it has been pointed out that there are many degree mills operating out of the U.K. so I am not aware of any real benefit to their system. Again as mentioned earlier in this thread the apostile verifies that it is a genuine dipolma not a genuine school. The benefits of a genuine school are of course enormus. Sooner or later a fake degree will cost the holder a high price. Good luck in your studies.!

 

The "The Hague Convention" goal was to articulate a method to validate degrees from other countries. That way a person who had obtained a Medicine degree, say from the United States, could work legally in any of the countries that signed the agreement. Therefore this apostile not only verifies that a specific diploma is valid, but it also serves as a guarantee to the other countries that the receptor of the degree has an official credential. Let's not forget that the Hague Convention, in addition, stipulates that the official transcripts must been "apostiled" as well. Why would anyone want to make sure that a person has a genuine degree from a degree mill??? That would be just plainly ridiculous. Would the US Department of State stamp a degree from MIGS or any other diploma factory? That is not the spirit of this contract, and I am afraid that if the United States Government does not comply with this properly, once again it is breaching international accords.

 

I believe that you are confusing the Hague Convention with the Lisbon Convention. It is the latter that addresses international recognition of educational qualifications. Its text can be found here:

http://culture.coe.fr/infocentre/txt/eng/esucon.165.html

Note particularly Articles VI and VIII, which address your issues.

I did a search for the word "apostile" in the text of the Lisbon convention and did not find it. I don't think that apostiles are particularly relevant to assessing the nature and suitability of foreign educational qualifications.

The United States is in complete compliance with the Lisbon Convention. I also resent the implication of your remark.

If somebody is seeking to use an American qualification in the Netherlands, the Competent Authorities for assessing the suitability of that qualification for its proposed use are *in the Netherlands*. The United States Department of State can't tell the Netherlands that it must accept a particular American qualification.

The Lisbon Convention requires all signatory nations to make available general information on how their education system is structured and on who to contact to get detailed information on the standards of particular institutions. The United States does that. Information on these matters can be found here:

http://www.ed.gov/NLE/USNEI/

From Article VIII of the Lisbon Convention:

VIII. Information on the assessment of higher education institutions and programmes

Article VIII.1
Each Party shall provide adequate information on any institution belonging to its higher education system, and on any programme operated by these institutions, with a view to enabling the competent authorities of other Parties to ascertain whether the quality of the qualifications issued by these institutions justifies recognition in the Party in which recognition is sought. Such information shall take the following form:

a in the case of Parties having established a system of formal assessment of higher education institutions and programmes: information on the methods and results of this assessment, and of the standards of quality specific to each type of higher education institution granting, and to programmes leading to, higher education qualifications;

b in the case of Parties which have not established a system of formal assessment of higher education institutions and programmes: information on the recognition of the various qualifications obtained at any higher education institution, or within any higher education programme, belonging to their higher education systems.

 

I believe you are looking at the Hague Convention as it was intended while I am looking at it as it is. Both are valid viewpoints but I would argue the pragmatic viewpoint is more important as far as students are concerned. Further if ANY government truely accepted a validated degree without any question whatsoever they would be doing a disservice to their country. I certainly would not want a person with a stamped degree, such as a medical doctor, from Russia accepted with out question. As far as breaching international accords, I think the U.S.'s reputation is worse than the reality. The U.N. for example exist because the U.S. continues to provide the bulk of support.

 

Dear Posters,

Thank you *very much* again for your replies.

I hope that both of you coincide with me that the previous step to accepting the validity of a degree (by the local authorities, of course), even before checking if its content meets the national criteria, is to determine whether that degree is legal or not in the country that “awards” it according to its laws. That is exactly what I consider to be the function of this treaty. Similarly, an American citizen who travels abroad with a valid passport bestowed by the US Government is regarded to have an acceptable document to demonstrate his or her identity.

Otherwise the Department of State may legalize, and give “green light” to a degree that in the United States is illegal (and its use may be considered in some states a crime, I must add). Allow me to repeat this question; would the US Dept. of State place an apostile (and thus legitimizing it) on one of those degree mill diplomas? Could I use in Europe, Asia or Africa a degree with the acquiescence (perhaps, complicity) of the USA government that is not legal (or worth nothing) in the States? I have seen in this board in numerous occasions that potential distance students are strongly discouraged to study in unaccredited institutions. Does this (wise) advice apply to individuals who plan to pursue a career in foreign countries?

No demeaning or pejorative intention in my comment about the compliance of the USA with international agreements. I have been living there six years, and I had an extraordinary time, making lots of lifetime friends, while getting access to what I consider a world-class education, superior to that of most countries of the world (forgive my lack of modesty). I was just expressing my indignation for what I consider to be a fraud (if it is finally true that the US government signs an illegal degree and facilitates somehow its use abroad).

My wife has already initiated the procedure to have the Dept. of State signing her degrees finding great help in the American officials. As of the University she intends to study, please find next the link, a distance accredited (legal) university in Spain. The program is in English and Spanish, and its price is very attractive and reasonable. Its only turn off is its acceptance percentage (about 20% for the PhD program).

http://campus.uoc.es/doctorat/eng/requisits.htm


I hope I made my point convincingly this time.Thank you very much for your attention.

 

Confusion!

I think there is some confusion here. Because an institution is not accredited by an accrediting body that is recognised by the US Department of Education does not make it illegal. For example, a California based institution that has state approval is quite legal and anyone presenting a degree from such an institutio has a 'legal' degree. As to whether the academic standards required to earn that degree are as good or bad as those required at an accredited institution is open to debate but it is a legal degree. Likewise, if a new institution opened today in the USA with an approval from the state in which it is domiciled to operate it (e.g. Arizona) it would be legal. Now Arizona, for example, requires that within five years (I think) of opening the institution will be well on the road to acquiring accreditation. NOw if the institution decided to go for the DETC accreditation (rather than regional accreditation) it could not do so for at least two years because DETC requires the programme to have been operational for that time operiod and also requires the institution to mail out to 100 participants some form of questionnaire about the programme. So, someone could earn a degree from this new institution, that is operating quite legally but it not accredited!

Thus, if I applied to an institution in Europe with such a degree it is legal and I doubt, under the new EU human rights laws introduced in recent years (I"m not a lawyer so cannot comment ind etail ont hes ematters), that any university would have the right to challenge the 'legality' of my degree just because it isn't 'accredited'.

I've taken a look at the web site you posted and I was amazed! Of course, it is for your wife to decide what she wants to do but this programme appears very complicated and time consuming! I've never even heard of the institution ( and I keep my eyes on the ball with these things) and I wonder whether she'd be better off (having a British MSc) getting into a British part-time PhD programme! Why did your wife not simply apply to the Spanish institution using only her UK qualifications. Dare I also ask which US institution(s) she earned her degree from that has caused this 'problem'/requirement? I'm sure had she applied with a degree from Florida State, Cal State, Fordham...or wherever....no such requirement (Secrertary of State signature, etc) would have been required!

Just a thought!

 

Dear Telfax

My wife has degrees from the following institutions

B.A. Colorado State University
M.A. University of Dayton
M.S. London School of Economics and political Science

As you can see they are relatively known universities from the States and from England. I must point out though that they asked us to present such documentation even before they knew the source of her degrees. For that it would not have matter that the degrees came from Harvard or from Yale. The requirement had been identical, and would have not been waived. I must also point out that any other university of Spain demands equal certifications. It is a Ministry of Education requirement rather than a university constraint.

She was looking into the UK to do her PhD work there. In fact she was accepted by the London School of Economics but they refused to allow her to complete her PhD from The Netherlands (she has a good job here, and distance or even evening education in this country is simple inexistent at the PhD level). Sadly she had to cancel her registration process. As far as I remember she had to stay there at least one year (until she obtained her MPhil). That was impossible given our financial limitations so she looked around in Sheffield, Manchester, and others for an external research program. She had to go to campus at least four weeks each year and she finally desisted. Probably you can find somewhere in this board a discussion I opened trying to help her find a suitable place to conduct her studies.

The Universitat Oberta de Catalunya is a public university (funded by the Spanish government). It has been recently founded, but the name and the curriculum of the professors is quite good in my opinion. The degree is absolutely legitimate in Spain (no doubt about this), and therefore in the European Union. There is some hassle in the admission process, but afterwards she can do everything else (except for the defense of her thesis) over the Internet. That was exactly what she was looking for.

As for the first part of your contribution, I was enquiring in this direction originally. I heard a few days ago in this same board about someone who was studying a PhD in Psychology degree in Northcentral University and CCU; legal, unaccredited universities. However, a poster warned this person about publicizing his PhD (upon completion) from these institutions to avoid being sued (I’ll try to find the link). So this person could be sued for using a degree earned in Northcentral or CCU, but he *could* use his title abroad provided that the US Gov. places the apostile. This is clearly a contradiction.

Perhaps all this is just a cultural difference in the interpretation of concepts such as accreditation or legitimate degrees.

I also thank you for your comments.

 

To JLV

If you/you wife are willing to give me rough idea as to the research issue/topic she wants to investigate for her PhD I'll do my best to find a British programme (or programmes) that may meet her requirements. For example, it it can generally fall within the fiels of business administration ( widely construed) she could try to gain admission to the DBA offered by Glasgow University-totally without any attendance other than for the viva (oral) examination! If outside business there are other institutions! Much of this is about finding a supervisor to support the application and you'll find any attendance requirements are waived! I've just finished supervising a personnel director of a major UK corporation (you'd know it if I named) and she has never attended any class once! She has been to see me and her other supervisor five times in fours of part-time study! Each meeting lasted about three hours! It can be done! It really is a case of getting /talking with the supervisor ahead of applying!

 

To Telfax

Telfax, I truly appreciate your interest. Her field is political science and when she was accepted at the LSE her proposal was based on Gibraltar and its decolonization. She was accepted by the corresponding specialist professor and later by the university. She has a 4.0 GPA in America and she graduated with Distinction at the LSE. It was particularly touching for her to receive her degree from the hands of Sir Anthony Giddens... I just mention this so it is clear she is a good candidate.

I have a Bachelors and a Master's in Mechanical Engineering, ehem, ... wouldn't you know by chance of a British PhD with low residency requirements as well....?

Thank you very much for your help, telfax. I honestly appreciate the interest you have shown.

 

Many bad and (my opinion) fake schools vigorously use the apostille process to try to persuade potential students of the legitimacy of their school. Because of this, I devote half a page to the matter in Bears' Guide (page 60). Here's a summary.

All that apostille (sometimes called "authentication") does is confirm that the person (notary or school official) who signed the diploma is who he or she says they are, and that they really signed it. Thus it is a form of government notarization, and says nothing whatever about the content of the document.

I sell you a fake M.D. from my Godzilla University. I take the diploma to my local Notary and for $10, they will notarize my signature -- that is, state that the signature on the diploma is the same one that is on my driver's license.

Now I take (or send) the phony diploma and the notary's certificate to Sacramento (state capital). They will confirm in writing that what I have sent them is indeed a certificate of notarization.

Now I package all the documents -- the diploma, the notarization, and the state confirmation -- and send it to the federal government (in Washington, or at an embassy in another country).

A federal officer will now issue an apostille, confirming that they have seen these three linked documents.

At no point in the process does anyone know or care what the document is, or whether it is legitimate. Whether your diploma comes from Oxford, Harvard, or Godzilla U, you can get the same apostille.

Diploma mills couldn't have designed a better process for themselves, if they had tried.

 

John, thank you for your clarification.

Now I narrate the story from the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. I have already gotten the apostile attached to my degree from Godzilla University. I take it to the Spanish Ministry of Education bringing along a translated copy of my academic records, previously “designed” to suit my necessities. If the courses length, credits, and content match those offered in Spanish regular universities (and no doubt they will match), I can then be conferred an official (legitimate) Spanish degree, and more important, the ability to have a profession, not only in Spain, but also in the rest of the European Union.

Every time I am enquired about my degree and the university I can proudly show the attached apostile that will dissipate any doubt, plus the official degree awarded by the foreign authorities will help to prove.

This is what I call a fraud. As John says, I do not think any degree mill would have designed the process better.

 

While it is unfortunate the degree mills take advantage of the process on a pragmatic level I see little to be concerned about. As we have already discussed the apostille only proves the person has a paper certificate. It is up to the accepting institution to inquire about the validity of the diploma, school and program. In your case the Spanish University would likely need a sealed transcript directly from the U.S. University. In my example the Hospital would need the same from the foreign University. The next step is the accepting University would need to be sure the granting institution is legitimate. There are numerous easy ways to do this that John has described when writing about "GAAP". Personally I would have it no other way. If the accepting institution is not thorough in checking out credentials they will reap the result. You are correct when you describe what degree mills and their customer do as fraud. That is exactly what it is and that is why they risk going to jail for doing it.

 

To JLV

I would have thought that your wife's doctoral topic could be accommodated at most British universities and she would not have to do any course work. It is a question of deciding which school/faculty is best suited for the topic - e.g. history or economics and you may even be able to make a case for a business school location and I'm also sure there are interdisciplinary departments in somce British universities that may consider her. In your own case have a look at Warwick university, especially the Warwick Manufacturing Group where I think they offer an Eng D and a PhD. Brunel University would also be a good place to look as would Oxford Brookes. The key to all of this vis a vis residency is talking with a supervisor first, getting him/her on your side and then working with him/her largely by email, fax and phone and going occasionally for the odd face to face tutorial. It can be done.

Hope this is of some help.

 

That's ridiculous.

First of all, people use degrees from CCU all the time. They are entirely legal. (I don't know if North Central has produced any graduates yet, but it's legal too.) Entry into certain regulated professions is a matter for each particular state to decide. Finally, *anyone* can be sued.

Secondly, it is up to the competent authorities in each foreign country to decide if a particular foreign degree meets their local requirements. If those authorities simply require a foreign diploma to be notarized, then they are behaving in a naive and incompetent manner.

Judging from the text of the Lisbon Convention, I give Europeans more credit than that.