City and Guilds Awards what are they?

The City and Guilds Senior Awards confusing.

They call it Award. On their web site its listed as Vocational Certificate of Competence and on the certificate it self it is written that " This Diploma certifies that the Council of the Institute" etc.

So what is it , Award, Certificate or Diploma?

On the UK QCF:

Award level 7 is Masters degree level award from 1 to 6 credits.
Certificate level 7 is Masters degree level certificate 12 to 36 credits - some Masters Degrees have 36 credits so its could be it.
Diploma level 7 is usually 37+ and above credits of Masters Degree level.

On Wikki:

City and Guilds site:
Membership MCGI is the ideal award for senior managers and is at a comparable level to a British Master's degree.
Membership* qualifications and training courses | City & Guilds

MCGI
City & Guilds Level 7 Award for Professional Recognition
Accreditation No:600/6109/1
Type:Vocation Certificate of competence
Credits data unavailable
Guided Learning Hours:6 - 6
Last certification date:01/01/2020

http://www.cityandguilds.com/Courses-and-Qualifications/professional-recognition-awards/professional-recognition-awards/9200-professional-recognition-awards/level-7

NACES member agency evaluated MCGI in Engineering Management as equivalent to US Regionally Accredited Masters Degree in Engineering Management.

 

I don't know how the educational credits transfer across to the US degrees:

"Within the UK, one credit represents 10 notional hours of learning. Institutions use this guide as a basis for setting the credit value of a module or programme before it is offered to students. For example, a module that is estimated to involve 150 notional hours of learning will be assigned 15 credits and one that involves 400 notional hours of learning will be assigned 40 credits."

http://www.qaa.ac.uk/Publications/InformationAndGuidance/Documents/CreditLeaflet_Nov09.pdf

 

There was an old woman - a life-long moonshiner - who lived in the mountains. She weighed around 600 pounds and could no longer get through the door of her cabin. A sheriff's officer was sent to arrest her and reported "She's ketchable, but not fetchable." :smile:

I think a slightly different duality extends to City and Guilds awards. Rather than "ketchable vs. fetchable" I'd say they're recognizable, but not very transferable. For years, here at DI, there have been long threads about City and Guilds, with a lot of discussion of (extremely limited) transfer credit. I'm NOT saying anything against the value of City and Guilds, and I acknowlege they require much work experience, effort and knowledge to acquire.

Here's a sample thread: http://www.degreeinfo.com/general-distance-learning-discussions/28526-city-guilds-awards.html

I think it's best summed up by saying:

(1) The higher-level awards are considered (in UK and EU) to be equivalent to certain degrees
(2) They are not, in themselves, degrees. Consequently, they are difficult to assess under US universities' normal credit-hour system.
(3) NACES, UK-NARIC etc consider them equivalents - not degrees. As equivalents, they're useful - but not so much towards further study.

Johann

 

I should add - in the UK, such awards can get you into a University "top-up" program where you complete your degree in double-quick time -- maybe as little as a year. UK has a lot of "top-up" programs for holders of qualifications that are obtained from education outside the traditional University environment.

Johann

 

In UK the academic, vocational, professional qualifications have framework.
The Senior wards until 2012 were only under royal charter and equated to NVQ.
In 2012 the Senior Awards LCGI, GCGI and MCGI etc officially became accredited OfQual and are no longer equated to NVQ but are NVQ.

See chart

http://ofqual.gov.uk/help-and-advice/comparing-qualifications/

There are many awarding bodies who are recognized and accredited for such qualifications that are called NVQ, National Vocational Qualifications etc

The NQF, National Qualifications Framework evolved , it used to have 5 levels then it was adjusted to 8 levels. In 2010 it was renamed officially to Qualifications Credit Framework.
What was introduced is the concept of Award, Certificate and Diploma.
Award - (1 to 12 credits - 40 to 480 hours of learning)
Certificate - (13 to 36 credits - 520 to 1440 hours of learning)
Diploma - (37 credits or more - 1480 or more hours of learning).

Hours 30 = 1200 For BSc degree 4 certificates on Level 6 = 120 credits.

Credits are calculated from notional hours (NH) divided by 40.

So Senior AWARD listed as Vocational CERTIFICATE of competence and actually states that its a DIPLOMA

I emailed to City and Guilds still waiting for an answer.

 

Universities in the U.S. typically award .5 credit hour for every 1 ECTS credit. For example, a course worth 5 ECTS would transfer to the U.S. as 2.5 U.S. semester credit hours.

So European 240 credits = 120 US Semester credits.

 

No - it wouldn't necessarily "transfer to the US" that way - i.e. transfer to a US school. That's up to the individual school. An individual school may, as it wishes, give you .5 credits, more, less or even bupkis.

OK - you say 240 ECTS credits = 120 US semester credits. My best guess: if so, that probably means such a qualification has a good chance to be be deemed equivalent to a Bachelor's degree by a NACES evaluator.

It does NOT mean you'll exchange those credits for a Bachelor's degree from a US school. This won't work - try laundering those credits in entirety through one of the Big 3 and you'll see what I mean.

What it DOES mean - if you have an equivalent, per NACES, your expectations include being able to apply for jobs requiring that degree.

Johann

 

Johan,
I guess I wasn't clear in my reply.
The credits I was talking about is for real learning in UK university.
Some Universities have a 4 diploma or certificate rout.

Their NC - National Credit hours calculated not only as contact hours but also hours taking exams and projects etc.
Once a students earn their final diploma ( 4th) after 4 years they are granted degree.
from that University.

I remember that HW ESB used to do something similar, they had 11 modules to their MBA and every three modules one was awarded a diploma and in the end a Degree.
So there was an exit point after each 3 or 4 modules.

As to City and Guilds I know couple of universities and colleges in USA that granted for 2 LCGI certificates (Management and Electronics Engineering) total of 80 semester credits toward a Bachelors degree. Also others awarded transfer credit on different levels. One DETC one RA university in Southern California.
One University in Hawaii - RA.
And Even one in Canada in Montreal.

A friend of my used the following method.
City and guilds provided an official curriculum for FTD in Electrical Engineering and also Leadership and management NVQ 4.
On that document it is listed that FTD and LCGI and one more older Diploma of Sr. Advanced Technician Diploma all equally listed.
wile there was no GPA those classes listed that matched the classes in the university in the US were granted transfer credit with Pass grade.
The GPA was calculated only on classes one took at the US University.
So the LCGI was granted the same trat,emt so to say as some one who came from 2 year community college AS degree.

Since I have two LCGI awards, GCGI and MCGI, for my LCGI I have the PDF doc that have classes listed for FTD and also NVQ level 4 for Management etc.

I also have real degrees I earned so this is redundant in my case. My GCGI and MCGI are awards I got for the Engineering Council IEng and later CEng registration.

 

I realized that, Lerner. What I said (and what I meant) was that there MIGHT be difficulty with course-by-course transfer. I stick to that. Transferring individual courses can be a mixed-results process -especially between countries. One University's policy does not necessarily reflect another's. They don't all simply "add up the credits." Individual courses - individual decisions.

Yes, too - what you said about Heriot-Watt / Edinburgh Business School.. Most UK University programs are in "modules" - somewhat equivalent to semester or academic year here. I didn't realize there were certificates for each HW-EBS module. Degree awarded only at the end, of course.

I realize and respect that you have quite a "wall" there, Lerner. IIRC you have your "real" (as you put it) degrees, your two LCGI awards - and a German engineering qualification as well. My congratulations - well done.

Johann

 

In some countries, they'll even dissect the individual courses within a complete degree. Germany is (I feel) particularly persnickety in this regard. I read - I think in this forum - of a lady who applied to a German doctoral program. She had RA Bachelor's and Master's degrees from very good American schools. It took them a while, but the German school eventually denied her for this reason:

Her Bachelor's contained some credits originally earned at a Community College. They're all RA and many, many Americans earn credits there that transfer to a four-year degree. However - Germany's policy is that Community College credits are zero academic credit in Germany - and a degree that contains any is not an acceptable degree there.

I just relate this story to illustrate my point - if you're talking transfer credit - degree or (particularly) individual course credit between countries - there are NO guarantees whatsoever.

Johann

 

I checked. Yes, I did read that cautionary tale (above) on this forum. Last post in the thread:
http://www.degreeinfo.com/business-mba-degrees/43875-doctorate-business-german-business-school-will-i-able-find-job.html
Apparently it's a ZAB (Government) rule -- but the Universities have to live by the decision.

I repeat - credit transfer abroad, NO GUARANTEES.

Johann

 

Johann you are 100% correct.

Credit transfer be ot from a broad or even in state from the same accrediting agency is not guarantied.
As we know its at discretion of the University/Institute one apples to.

I paid 370 BP for the MCGI, it was one time fee. It cost equates to 1 credit from US university.

As you know many Canadian MBA programs prefer for entry BBA degree.
In US one can have Bachelors degree in other fields and get in to MBA program.
Depends on the additional accreditation etc.

 

Great deal, Lerner!

"The fee - minimal.
The credential - valuable.
The knowledge - priceless." :smile:

Maybe City and Guilds could use that line in their ads. No - wait. It's sort of been done. We don't want them to get sued. :jester:

Johann

 

It appears City and Guilds don't know if LCGI, GCGI, MCGI are
Award, Certificate or Diploma or is it me, maybe I don't understand?

 

In the UK professional credentials are sometimes as important as academic credentials. I suspect this is a legacy of those days when few people attended university but obtained their training through apprenticeships, college, and work experience (my route before moving to the USA). There are numerous institutions in the UK that award professional credentials including RAeS, Inst. Mech Engineer, and the CGI.

The LCGI, GCGI, and MCGI are professional qualifications related to ones education and experience.

This site gives a overview of the CGI
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_and_Guilds_of_London_Institute

 

Ian,
Thanks for the reply. Wikki is informative but unofficial.

I have LCGI, GCGI and MCGI.

As of 2012 these are NVQ officially listed as level 4, 6 and 7,

As you know the UK Qualifications Framework is now CQF.
The standards is Award, Certificate, Diploma.

The question I'm asking is simple but it seems no one knows the answer.

It called Award, On the web site they list it as Vocational Certificate of Competance and on the certificate it is written "THis Diploma is etc"

So what is it?

Award, Certificate or Diploma?

See what each means on QCF

http://ofqual.gov.uk/help-and-advice/comparing-qualifications/

Award = 1 to 12 units
Certificate = 12 to 36 Units
Diploma = 37 and above.

 

Today I got the following reply:
Basically its what Ian was referring to.

 

Thanks for the reply

According to one area of City and Guilds web site it calls the Professional Recognition Award as Vocational Certificate of Competance.
OfQual accreditation as NVQ 6.

So there is a lot of confusion as all NVQ are rather Award, Certificate or Diploma.

GCGI not an NVQ ? Then why OfQual accreditation and listing it among NVQ?

Very confusing

 

Dear Sir or Madam
Thank you for contacting City & Guilds Customer Relations.
As the Graduateship (GCGI) is a Professional Recognition Award, it recognises prior achievements and therefore is not structured in the same way as a standard qualification would be.
When you see the word 'certificate' used, this is an acknowledgement that all successful applicants are issued with a certificate as a result of their previous achievements.
As an NVQ is a work-based qualification and Professional Recognition Awards are an acknowledgement of achievements/professional progression within a working environment, OfQual appear to be listing it as an NVQ as this is the closest qualification type to these particular awards.
Should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact the Customer Relations team on 0844 543 0033.
Please visit City & Guilds Bookshop: Buy Textbooks/Logbooks/Exam Success Books/Diploma Handbooks on Multiple Subjects to see how City & Guilds can support you during your studies with a variety of textbooks, exam success titles and pocket guides.
Yours sincerely

Leah Ellis-Llewelyn
Customer Relations Advisor | Customer Relations
City & Guilds - Believe you can