European Doctorates

Good afternoon and I hope all are well. I tried to research the answer to this question before posting but couldn’t find an answer.

Question: Are Europeans more likely to pursue doctoral studies for the sake of learning than Americans in the United States?
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Why do I ask this question? In this forum, I read (and engaged in) discussions about the “utility” and “ROI” of a doctorate, whether it is a PhD, DBA, etc. If someone wants to work in academia, the advice is that the person should pursue a doctorate in the traditional way - B&M school that is RA and somewhat reputable or better. If one is already in the labor force and older than your twenty-something year olds, then online-doctorates is a great option for busy folks. The online learning folks would then have to research the best online program that meets their needs. The reasons for pursuing a doctorate are pretty much a means -to- ends discussion. Are Europeans different in this regard? I understand that Europeans want the same thing we in the United States want, but is being “cultured” or “learned” more important to them than it is to us? Please enlighten me on this (sincerely).

 

No particular European nations of interest.

 

In quantitative research, one sets the null hypothesis about two populations as "no difference." In other words, they're really one population. The alternate hypothesis is that there is a difference and they're really two distinct populations. Then you sample them, compare the results, and determine whether or not the difference observed is large enough to say there is a difference in the populations. If not, the null is accepted. If so, the null is rejected in favor of the alternative. Soooooo......

Any reason to think there is a difference between these two populations? If not, then they're the same population.

In my casual, small, and not-so-random sampling of doctoral students in one program at one European university, I didn't hear a single reason for pursuing the doctorate than what we read here. No differences. Is that conclusive? I wouldn't write a thesis on that basis, but it is a bit of evidence pointing in one direction.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if this is true ... but if is, the reason might not be because Europeans place a higher value on being “cultured” or “learned”. It might simply be because the cost of higher education is significantly lower.

Doctoral education in the US is not cheap, and student loans generally cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. For most Americans, doctoral studies are a major financial commitment -- one that may not be affordable, unless there is some prospect of a professional payoff. A doctorate just for the sake of learning is something of a luxury good.

Take a look at the tuition for the UK's Open University, then compare to a US state university (or a US private university). Note that 1 pound = about $ 1.50.

 

The real point, though, is that the tuition for UK or EU citizens is even lower -- it appears to be less than half of the "overseas" rates that apply to Americans.

If "less than $20,000" is "pretty good" -- then how good is "less than $10,000" ? Sure, it's still "nontrivial" -- but for many Americans, $10,000 over multiple years might be manageable, even out of pocket.

Would Americans be more inclined to pursue doctorates -- even if only for the sake of learning -- if they were offered by RA schools for total tuition of less than $10,000 ?

 

And if UK tuition is still too high -- then try Germany, where university tuition is practically free. Increasing numbers of British students study in Germany for this reason. Here's what one British law student says about his studies in Germany:

So a year's law school tuition in Germany is about $1,950. And this is "relatively little" compared to English law school tuition.

And it's microscopic compared to US law school. In the US, tuition/fees for JD programs currently average about $23,590 at state schools and $40,585 at private schools, according to the ABA.

 

I think that ROI is a major part of any pursuit of education. The PhD is best when it is pursued for a passion in the area and ROI, otherwise it gets very hard to finish. Stratified societies may look for benchmarks to reflect societal stratas. A PhD may partly fulfill that role. While I am unaware of any research in the area, I suspect that any alleged superior reverence for "culture or education" may be more to do with societal strata than anything else.

I suspect that Europeans are little different to at least other western societies, quality of life, inclusive of personal interest, ROI, and status, being the driving force behind PhDs in general. Some people who simply want to learn something of less material value may tend to head to "boutique" PhDs to satisfy their their needs, but they may not be the majority. I am thinking of "great books" and perhaps some new age topics. The question may hinge on what stage of life the individual is at. Goals may substantially differ at various ages, they did for me. Economic factors are now lesser drivers than when I was supporting children etc.

 

I only have experience with the UK, but in general most academics in the UK start academic careers with a M.Sc degree (at least in business faculties) and then do the PhD while already full time academics. Some more science oriented professions (e.g. Physics, Math) attract young PhD students but in general PhDs are not so popular among people looking for professional careers.

The reason why most people do the PhD while full time academics is because salaries in the UK for academics are substantially lower than in the US. It is not worth going for a PhD for the salary you get after graduation. If Universities would have to rely on PhD qualified professors, they wouldn't be able to operate.

In the US, salaries at AACSB accredited schools start in 100K range so this motivates people to do PhDs and pay for them. Also, some companies in fields like in Engineering and Sciences prefer PhDs and salaries can be profitable enough to attract people.

The debate is always about getting a PhD from a low tier online school in fields that normally do not require PhD qualified people such as Management, HR, Accounting, etc. Most academic careers require a PhD from a reputable institution and many of the online schools are very new to be considered "reputable" enough for full time tenure track academic careers. The question is if you cannot use them for academic careers and most professional careers do not really require them either, what is really the market for this type of credential? I have suggested that their main utility is online adjunct positions, people working already in academia as full time university lecturers or CC instructors (the PhD puts them in a higher salary bracket), and consultants that might feel that the PhD might attract more business. However, some disagree and feel that a PhD from a low tier online institution is not worth the effort for adjunct careers but yet we see in forum quite a few people wanting these degrees for academic adjunct careers.

 

Thank you all. From this thread, I get the overall sense that Europeans pursue doctorates for pretty much the same reasons we in the United States do (which is for utilitarian purposes) except for the few who do it purely for the sake of learning, and these folks could be European, American, or from any other nation or continent whatsoever.

Again, the cost of doctorate programs is a major consideration in deciding to pursue for the sake of learning, thus it may be that Europe and elsewhere could have higher enrollments of these knowledge seekers in doctoral (and Masters) programs, in both traditional and non-traditional formats, as opposed to enrollment of these same people in the USA.

 

I would only want to add a small word of caution. Despite the existence of the EU, there is no single entity called "Europe," where laws, rules, policies, systems, etc. exist in synchrony. There are perhaps 40 - 50 countries (depending on how you want to count) in Europe and each has it's own laws , rules, etc. In some of these countries you can pursue your educational goals forever and at virtually no cost to yourself. Other countries are more restrictive. It's easy to imagine the results of these differences. It might be more informative to take it on a country-by-country basis rather than trying to focus on the continent as a whole.

 

Great point! Let's discuss Spain then. Are Spaniards more likely to pursue doctoral studies for the sake of learning than Americans in the United States?

 

This site

Higher education in Spain < Higher Education | Expatica Spain

indicates that while college fees are low in Spain (40-80 USD per credit) unemployment is high making it difficult for students to cover their living expenses while in school. On this forum we generally think of people working full-time and going to school on a part-time basis. In this discussion however, it seems we're talking more generally about all doctoral students. Having said that, I would imagine that a person in Spain who was employed full-time might be more likely to pursue their education at the doctoral level just because it's so inexpensive (I haven't factored in the cost of living, etc.). People in the USA typically have to make big sacrifices to do this and so I think it becomes less common. If someone wanted to check, one statistic that might be informative would be the percentage of the population (Spain v. USA) holding doctoral degrees. I'd do it myself but I'm going roller skating now. Hopefully I won't break anything and I'll be able to rejoin the conversation later.

 

More info on costs of University in Spain: The cost of studying in Spain | Universidad.es

Looks like 'way less expensive to undertake doctoral studies in Spain. Might even be less than South Africa! Spain's unemployment rate is horrible - around 26% last I heard, well over that for young people. If a Spaniard wanted to undertake doctoral studies for love of learning, tuition is cheap enough -- but the country's economy being what it is, it's even more likely that the necessity of food, housing etc. might keep him/her out of school, presuming that he/she could find work in the first place.

I'm checking the stats on percentage of doctorates...I'll get back.

Johann

 

Here they are: Technology Trends in Latin America - Education

It looks like US has almost double the Ph.Ds per 100,000 in all disciplines that Spain does.

About 19 per 100,000 in US and 10 per 100,0000 in Spain. Scroll down to the second set of graphs. (The blue bar is total - all disciplines. Science and engineering are broken out separately.)

I'm not sure what that says. Maybe Kizmet can comment when she's back from rollerskating. :smile:

Johann

 

One contributing factor for sure: The US economy is obviously doing better than Spain's. Other than that....

 

OK, so I've managed to stay out of the ER today.

I have a few thoughts about the data. The first is simply this: I don't know if doctoral stats in the areas of science and engineering accurately represent all doctoral study in any country. Next I have to go back to the original question which was related to whether this group or that group was more interested in pursuing doctoral degrees "for the sake of learning." So this goes to motivation. It's a "why question," not an "if question." The data indicates that people in the USA pursue doctoral degrees at twice the rate of the people of Spain. That answers the "if" question but really says nothing about the "why."

So here's the question (rephrased) - I'm in the USA, I'm qualified for admission to a doctoral program, I have an interest in a subject that lends itself to doctoral study but this degree will not have any discernable affect on my life other than "for the sake of learning" (sometimes phrased as "personal enrichment") am I more or less likely to push that doctoral button than my counterpart in Spain? So we're saying that financial ROI=0. I think that most people, having to choose between eating, providing for their families, etc. will act conservatively and walk away from the degree goal. You can, after all read, study, etc. without earning a degree and so if it's all about "for the sake of learning" then you can dispense with the degree altogether. In short, I believe that people who earn doctoral degrees solely "for the sake of learning" are likely to be empty nesters with sizable quantities of disposable income. I'm guessing that this makes the USA a better candidate than Spain and that brings us back to the provided data which supports this conclusion even if it's just science/engineering stuff. That's all I've got right now.

 

Let's say we knew. What would we do with the information?