A PhD IN YOUR 40'S?!? How viable?

I admit that as an undergrad, I was a washout. My GPA for my anemic Liberal Arts BA was a 2.2 or something. But that was 20 years ago and I'm older and somewhat wiser. I've done mostly environmental lab work (ugh!) and have been teaching ESL around Asia since 1995. I'm fairly tired of ESL and plan on returning to the USA later in the year after I finish my MS Ed in Online Teaching and Learning from Cal State-Hayward this fall.

I've decided to go to Mizzou-Columbia to finish a EdS degree in Education Technology and am not quite sure what I plan on doing after that, except that I like teaching. (I've considered teaching at the Tech School level.) My question is, after the EdS, I will be around 45 and is completing a PhD after this age looked on very highly in the business/academic world? I should have done something like this long ago, but like alot of people, I was too busy messing around doing too many things to focus on something like that. Can anyone comment on this question?

Thanks!

 

Though I'm interested in pusuing a PhD in a different discipline, our situations are roughly equivalent. My hope is to embark on my doctoral studies within the next 2-3 years.
Jack
(who is currently 48)

 

why not go right to phd

Just a question. Once you have your masters degree it may make more sense to plow on to the phd or edd.
The Ed Spec. or sometimes called Cert of Adv study in ed. is often billed as the equivalent of a doct. without the dissertation. However, you will have to look extremely hard to find a doctoral program to grant you that status in a doctoral program based on the Ed. Spec.
Sometimes if you are continuing at the college where you got the Ed.Spec. there is no problem.
Once you complete the coursework in a doctoral program, you should have all but dissertation status. That really is a doctorate coursework, without the dissertation. Some colleges will grant a spec. cert. or a cert. of adv. study if you drop out of a doctoral program at the abd level (some do not).
This is just a suggestion. I don't know any hard and fast rules. But it since you seem sure that you want to get the doctorate, I don't see a benefit of an intermediary spec. degree. Your years of experience plus the Masters should get you about as much milage as a spec. degree. Earning the doct. could be a real benefit, depending on what you plan to do with it.
Good luck!

 

I definately plan on doing the EdS, but am sort of wobbly on the PhD. I guess at this phase, I'm information shopping and considering long term. I don't want to put myself thru the hell of a PhD if it's not going to help me any!

Like I sort of alluded to, teaching at the Community College/Tech School level sort of appeals to me. I can think of worse fates, like staying in Asia longer than 7 years!

 

I will be 43 in June, and like you, I completed my BA (just) over twenty years ago. I subsequently decided that I should be in the accounting profession and several years later I became a professional accountant. Most of my work involves teaching students preparing for their professional examinations. Since I ran my own firm, it has not been practicable for me to join a B&M university for further studies. I am now pursuing an MEd in Flexible Learning via USQ (online). I like the experience and it appears I am now hooked on DL. I definitely plan to go ahead and earn a doctorate if I do not ran out of steam.

Who said there is an age when we should stop learning? Let your thoughts about the PhD grow!

Opherus Musasira

 

My question is not really on stopping lifetime learning, it centers more on putting oneself thru the "Dante's Inferno" of academia to do a PhD. And especially if it's viable for continued employment--or are you doing alot of work only to become "overqualified" or not desirable to hire because you are competing with a 20-30 something-year old for the same position?

Lifetime learing is a desirable thing in an increasingly complex society. But in the real world, is a PhD in your late 40's-early 50's really viable? Or an EdS, for that matter?

 

You will be able to teach at a community college with with an Masters level degree, but I ask why you would stop there? You can get paid more for the PhD. I don't think you have to go thru "HELL", as you put it. This suggestion will not be a surprise to people, but I think you should look into Touro University International's PhD in Education. You can finish the 11 classes in about 1.5 years, and then begin working on the dissertation. 3 years from now, you will be Dr. Jimwe with your many years of experience. I say GO FOR IT.

 

JIMWE,

The primary issue is not your age but whether you are in touch with your professional and personal goals and needs. For example, are you certain of your educational goals, are you interested in working as an independent contractor or are primarily seeking academic work environments. Are your needs based on personal values and life accomplishments and independence or on professional recognition, financial remuneration and power. These and a myriad of other questions may assist you in understanding the basis for your decision to pursue a doctoral degree rather than basing it on age factors.

No one but you can answer these questions or provide you with external direction because the answers reside in self-awareness!

 

What I want to be when I grow up

As I approach my 53 birthday, I finally know what I want to do when I grow up (never thought there was much future in growing up, and still don't).

After working in project and construction management for 30 years, I realized that I was not getting much personal satisfaction. I am told that I am good at what I do, but I feel that one should also enjoy the work. The aspects of my career that have been the most rewarding are; consulting, research, giving professional papers, training, and instructing others. I also realized the part of these I have always liked the best is working with others in solving problems and instructing them on how to do what I have done.

In analyzing this further I came up with the path that best encompassed these skills; teaching. This led me to the decision to seek further education, at the doctoral level, as an entry point to college level teaching.

So here I am with an application in progress at one school and working on two possible back-ups and several others if they do not work out.

So do not feel like the "Lone Ranger" because you are a "youngster". Actually, conversations with several people at different schools has lead me to believe that many DL programs are made up of mid-career people seeking a change.

Or in the words of Commander Peter Quincy Taggart (Jason Neasmith (Tim Allen)): Never give up! Never surrender! ("Galaxy Quest" (1999)).

BS - Michigan Tech '72
MBA - Cal State Hayward '80
PhD - ??? approx '06(+/-)

 

My degrees and ages earned (chronologically):

A.A.: 19
B.S.: 20
B.A.: 21
A.A.S.: 22
MBA: 25
PhD: 43 (If I complete it successfully next year).

 

As long as you have the aptitude (and your in the right place at the right time), it is never too late to pursue a Ph.D.

 

I'm 39 years old so I can relate. I do think that, as an older prospective PhD graduate...my degree will be more useful in some kind of independent endeavor such as publishing or doing independent research or seminars.

As a teacher, I know that having it would keep a lot of districts from hiring me...I mean, why would they hire a 45 year old teacher who is already topping out the pay scale when they can get a 22 year old at the entry level...and in theory, we'd both be doing the same work.

In teaching college level, I don't have the scholarly background to really compete for a job as a professor and I am not sure that having the PhD would really get me their either.....One dissertation does not a scholar make....

Which, to be honest, makes the California Coast not such a bad option. Especially if I plan to publish and do not seek a college teaching position. Especially if I do studies into the area of how our educational system is failing black males...I could write, speak, maybe even do some kind of institute...and you know, I could even justify my CCU doctorate by explaining that, I just couldn't afford the "traditional" programs and neither can a lot of black men (or men in general for that matter).

But, those are just my thoughts... A doctorate is no guarantee of employment, not necessarily a bump up the pay scale..as an older person, a lot of districts/employers would rather hire someone younger with less education and save some bucks..

Harold

 

In a perfect world, one's 40s would be the best time to earn a terminal degree; people have a tendency to earn them in their late twenties/early thirties while having an identity crisis and experiencing their hormones in full bloom, and that's why there's a disturbing correlation between someone's dissertation topic and the idea s/he spends his or her life defending. Because the Ph.D. becomes a rite of passage, students tend to identify themselves with their dissertation topics. "This, young Arthur, is Excalibur; and you shall wield it til the day you die."

In the real world, Ph.D.'s have enough utility that it makes sense to go on and earn one as soon as you want one (which is why I'm sitting here as a twentysomething Ph.D. student and feeling not quite the hypocrite)--but no sooner. I think the Union Institute once reported an average Ph.D. student age of something like 39, which sounds about right to me. And as I think John has mentioned on the forum a number of times, his wife earned her Ph.D. in Philosophy from Vanderbilt while in her forties.

Bottom line: There's no bad time to earn a Ph.D. It's not too late when you're in your forties, or fifties, or sixties, or even your nineties (John could tell a story relevant to that, if he's reading this); but if you earn one in your twenties, not being an insufferably arrogant little twit is very, very hard work.


Cheers,

 

You guys are just kids! I'm fifty five and have been involved in a doctoral program (RA for those interested) for the past two years. My bottomline was that I was cognizant of my need for independence and the fact that a doctorate would provide me with greater opportunities for professional work on a contractual basis.

I carefully researched the Big" DL schools, spoke directly with the deans of their respective departments and made my choice.

As I noted in my previous posting the key factor is to have a sense of inner direction and awareness of your stengths, limitations and realisitic goals. I am familiar with several other students who are in their late sixties! In this baby boomer generation the aging process isn't measured chronologically but by desire and motivation!

I wish all you whippersnappers good luck in your search for a doctoral program as well!

 

If that is your concern, then don't tell them that you have a Ph.D.

Later, after you've comfortably settled into your job, then you can have the Ph.D transcripts forwarded to the school's finance office so you can get your 6000 dollar raise (that's what it is here).

 

I agree with you about getting the PhD when you are older and more mature. Had I gotten a PhD when I was in my 20's I would have done Computer Science because $$$$ would have been my primary motivation. Now, at 40 with no bills and my mortgage paid off, money is not so much the motivator and I find I am more interested in something that I feel I can make a contribution in.

However, my basic point was the marketability of a PhD for a man in his 40's. Sad to say, it is my impression that school districts and maybe even universities like to feel they got "their money's worth" out of people and so they would be more apt to invest time and resources in a 20'something with a PhD than a 40' something with a PhD. One you get approximately 40 years of work out of and the other you get 20 years or so.

For example, I know a lot of people get their PhD in their forties but I would suggest that many of them who are college educators already had their positions secured before they got the PhD (accredited as well as unaccredited).

Which makes the unaccredited but legit programs appealing to mid-age people. They know that their age is a drawback to a lot of positions and so it's like 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' and so I can see why some would do California Coast then at least they can say "I got my PhD" and show a real life dissertation to prove it. $4500 beats paying $45,000 when neither degree is guarantee of a position.

Such is life....sometimes it sucks, but 90% of the time we can determine the suckiness of it all....

Harold

 

The problem with the unaccredited or state approved doctoral programs is that if one is involved with other professionals who possess traditional doctorates you will be cast as a pariah!

It is difficult enough explaining that I am obtaining a regionally accredited DL doctorate let alone one that isn't. My colleagues are very curious re: the methodology of completing a DL Ph.D program and quite frequently I experience "jabs" such as did you find your degree program on the cover of a match cover!

I know of several colleagues who have obtained state approved Ph.Ds and they quickly learn when not to brag about it when amongst traditionalists who whould literally distance themselves from them.

That is why I am firm believer in the RA route unless of course one wishes to obtain this degree primarily to demonstrate peronal or professional acomplishments. The RA doctorate assures you a place in the sun even though colleagues may have their suspicions re: distance learning programs.

 

What can I say?!?

You have got to want to do a doctorate FOR YOU! It really doesn't matter what I, or anyone else, writes here! YOU have got to want to do a PhD! It took me five years (part-time) here in the UK to achieve mine! It is changing, but in most UK PhD programmes there is little or no course work. When there is, it doesn't count! It is all part of the 'rite of passage' to get to be able to do the thesis (dissertation in the US) part of the programme and it is on the thesis alone that a candidate is judged (plus the viva voce [oral defense] examination) and the thesis has to demonstrate full familiarity with research techniques and the literature and the candidate must, in the thesis, make a 'contribution to knowledge' - that is, advance the topic/subject area to a new level by way of practice and/or theory. In the UK the emphasis in a PhD programme is on advancing 'theory'.

I earned my PhD from a prestigious UK university six years ago at the age of 49. I was actually 'put off' from resgistering! People at the university questioned why I needed to do it having been relatively successful in my career.

Anyway, I started and had as my main academic supervisor one of the country's leading academics in his field! The whole thing was a 'nightmare'! There were times when I thought I'd never reach the end. But this is part of the struggle! You have to be prepared to be like a top athlete. You have to train and train again until it hurts! You have to go down paths that will lead to dead-ends and you'll question whether your research is even viable and worthwhile. I can recall wondering what I was going to do with all the data I had collected, how I was going to analyse it and so forth. Once I had done that I wondered what it was I was going to state that was truly 'different' - making a contribution to knowledge! As it happened, I was at a management conference as a delegate and not really listening to the speaker but she suddenly said something that made me spark and from that point on I knew where I was going with the final two chapters of my PhD. Of course, not everyone has this experience but in my experience the majority of people I've spoken to (and have since supervised as an academic supervisijng doctorates!) go through a similar experience to my own.

Others may disagree, but there are doctorates and there are doctorates - and 'No', I'm not thinking of unaccredited institutions! Depending on which 'accredited/recognised' institution you go to (whether in the US, UK, or any other country) the required standard at some institutions is higher than at others! If people think otherwise, they are fooling themselves!

One other factor! It is estimated that knowledge is expaning so rapidly that a degree is virtually worthles sin terms of 'knowledge' within ten years! So, if you do a doctorate now you'll be well ahead and your PhD more valuable (nless the person has carrried on with theirt studies, perhaps as a university academic or as a technical researcher) than someone who, say, earned theirs, 25 (or more) years !

Sorry for writing at length like this but you will find that having a doctorate, especially from a well regarded institution, will 'open doors' in ways you cannot yet imagine! However, above all of this you will change as a person, your writing and other skills will (should!!!) improve and a whole new world will open up to you!

 

It doesn't work that way. At least in every situation that I've seen. They want all of the transcripts up front. That is, if you actually want to get paid for the units/degree.

Having said that, I've rarely seen that notion of school districts not wanting to pay people with advanced degrees actually happen in real life. Most often the person doing the interviewing (principals) don't even have a clue how many units past the BA (or past the credential/certificate/license) you actually are.



Tom Nixon

 

Do what is best for you and ignore everybody else - if your professional level qualifications are as good as or better than your peers, come from an institution that is respected, and a non-RA higher/terminal degree meets your needs and will for the future, go for it and ingore the flak - and you'll get 99% of it here on degreeinfo, as I expect from this post.

Not eveyone wants to become a professor and many of us are very happy as teachers and/or administrators/consultants at College, workplace or VET level. As you have truly said, the degree doesn't get you the position, and out here we are very much a-la UK in that our graded professional membership are what counts. Essentially it is the same there - you get a name and a good reputation, and people phone up for your CV because protocol requires that they have it, otherwise you wouldn't have to submit anything in many cases.

I am 58 and started my venture into post graduate education at age 46 and it was a breeze. You are then overlaying experience with knowledge and research - it is like looking at the other side of the coin. Younger people do not have that same advantage as a lot of what they are covering is totally new territory.

In my case I don't even use my MEd for teaching positions as usually it is higher than who I would be reporting to, or my MAcc if it 'threatens' someone.

Peter French
Melbourne, Australia

DipProdEng [BIET] 1961-65
CertAcc [RMIT] 1966-70
MAcc [UNE] 1991-92
CertTeach [NMCOT] 1993
PhD [ACU] 1994-99
BEd [UNE] 1995-96
MEd [UNE] 1996-97
EdD [Summit] 1997-99
Certified Management Accountant
Fellow Australasian Institute of Banking & Finance
Fellow Association of Taxation & Management Accountants
Member Institute of Industrial Engineers
Member Australian College of Education