Oxbridge MA degrees

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by telfax, Apr 20, 2002.

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  1. telfax

    telfax New Member

    A graduate of Oxford or Cambridge may, after a period of time (more than one year), 'pay' to receive the MA degree providing they are in good-standing - that is, have not brough the institution or themselves into disrepute. Taking the MA is purely optional but if a graduate does not do so (any many do not) they are, generally, precluded from voting and attending the various university committees that all MA holders subsequently become members of once they are awarded the MA. In Scotland the approach is different. Generally speaking, students there take a degree course lasting four years (although some are three years long) and they graduate immediately with the degree of MA. The various UK government watch-dog agencies are now trying to intrude so that an MA means just that -a postgraduate master's degree awarded after the successful conclusion of a period of study. The period of study for an MA (and many other earned masters degrees) is usually one year full-time or two years part-time. Many UK academics also believe the MPhil award is being abused. In the past students registering for a PhD (DPhil at Oxford, York, Sussex and Buckingham) were initially registered for the MPhil degree. If they did not make progress at the doctorate level they would terminate and be awarded the MPhil This still happens in the majority of British universities. After a period of time (usually two yeards) the student is upgraded to PhD registration if s/he shows they are making progress towards the PhD. However, some universities (including Oxford and Cambridge) have introduced a terminal taught MPhil degree in a wide variety of subjects. This has led some universities to introduce the Master of Research (MRes) degree as the qualifying first part of a doctorate programme. But, again, a student may terminate with the MRes if they do not wish to go on for the PhD.

    The external examiners for the PhD may conclude, when they viva (oral defence examination) a PhD candidate on his/her thesis, that the work is not up to scratch. It can be 'referred' for further work or, if the examiners determine that the work is not capable of being revised they can completely fail it or award the degree of MPhil if it demonstrates a standard at master's degree level but approaching doctorate level. Oxford and Cambridge often award the degree of Master of Letters (MLitt) when this happens.

    Hope this helps.
     
  2. Kane

    Kane New Member

    Oxford? or Oxbridge?

    My problem arose with an Oxford grad (www.nzqa.co.nz) who published a website that put down the NZQA for not recognizing his MA as a "taught" graduate MA that other universities offer.

    Even Oxfords website did not list an MA as an academic qualification and the QAA of Higher Education states it is not an "academic qualification."

    My problem grew further when he admitted he had no transcripts for his MA (How could he, if issued for undergrad work?) and still tried to present it as a academic qualification to NZQA and became rather unhappy when they rightfully said no way without proof of graduate coursework. Even on his forum he managed to attract people who decided to join in his attack against the NZQA. It reached a point where the NZQA Communications Officer went to the forum to invite people to present their complaints to him instead of lashing out on a messageboard.

    I still have not received a response from Mr. Powell on my most recent posts to his forum at (www.nzqa.co.nz) and I doubt I will.

    I believe Cambridge and Oxford are wonderful schools with legendary reputations but if they are issuing MA's without graduate coursework, transfer credits, a thesis or a combo of the three (as you say) they should reconsider this practice. Just go the URL I listed to see the problems that arose.

    Kane
     
  3. telfax

    telfax New Member

    Oxbridge MA

    Kane:

    Over the years I've even heard Oxbridge graduates, and their relatives, argue that the MA should be awarded, albeit you pay for it, because the people who go to Oxbridge are brighter than most other people and the work there is more difficult than at other universities! Telfax
     
  4. Yan

    Yan New Member

    Qualifications framework

    One of The Quality Assurance Agency for Higher Education (QAA)'s tasks is to work with higher education institutions to develop and manage the qualifications framework in order to "....... ensure a consistent use of qualification titles ........ provide public assurance that qualifications bearing similar titles represent similar levels of achievement." (Quoted from QAA's website). However, can it really do that? When? ......
     
  5. Kane

    Kane New Member

    Telfax

    I have heard the same thing. However, people from Harvard, Yale and the University of Toronto could claim the same thing.

    These people need to realize that regardless of how bright they are they still have to prove it like everyother student must.
     
  6. Kane

    Kane New Member

    Yan

    I tend to believe the QAA when they say Oxford MA's have no academic qualifications, if for no other reason; If they were in error, they would have had their rear ends sued off by now.
     
  7. Richard UK

    Richard UK New Member

    Hi, Oxbridge MA'a are not really degrees they represent status within the university. You study for 3 years to get your BA and then if you can;
    a) stay alive until 25 (if I remember corecttly);
    b) stay out of prison; and
    c) can afford £20

    you can then swap your BA for an "MA". The MA is really a BA only degree it is not a postgraduate degree. Anyone who says they have a postgraduate MA degree from Oxbridge is committing fraud IMO especially when applying for a job requiring postgrad education. As the "MA" title is already used 1 year postgrad taught degrees (popular with Americans students) are labelled "MPhil" which in other UK universities are 2 year research degrees. 2 year science based research degrees are called MSc (which is used by other UK universities as one year degrees).

    Its the same silly mess as UK surgeons calling themselves Mr to show they are better than Dr's. I am English but even I cannot understand some of the old silly ways in the UK!

    Of course as I have been told so many times "a 2.1 from Oxbridge is better than a 1st from anywhere else" which I presume means that anyone from Harvard etc will just have to grovel on there feets to the superior intellects at Oxbridge.

    :rolleyes:

    But i suppose I am just a bitter and inferior intellect.

    Richard UK (just in case you ask I got my undergrad degree from Bristol University UK and PhD from University of Cambridge)
     
  8. Malcolm Jenner

    Malcolm Jenner New Member

    Another minor point which has not previously been noted is that Oxford and Cambridge graduates with BA or MA can acquire the same degree from the other university if they go to study or teach there. Just a fee and a ceremony - no study or exams.

    Malcolm S Jenner
    MA (Oxford)
    MSc (CNAA)
    DipMus (Open)
     
  9. Bill Highsmith

    Bill Highsmith New Member

  10. Nosborne

    Nosborne New Member

    Oxford University

    Just to keep things interesting, the master's (real, genuine, postgraduate gotta-have-an-LLB-first) degree in Civil Law at Oxford is styled the B.C.L., Bachelor of Civil Law.
    Why SHOULD these things be easy? I mean, think about it. When the U.S. Law Schools decided that the degree title of LLB was not truly indicative of the level of academic accomplishment, mostly because you pretty well have to have a BA first, did they give the degree a DESCRIPTIVE name? Oh, heavens, NO! They could have called it a First Professional Degree in Law (F.P.D. They could have called it a Doctor of Law (L.D.)They could have done many things, but being who they were, they gave it a LATIN name that means nothing to anyone. "Juris Doctor". :rolleyes:
    Some years ago, I saw a J.D. diploma from the University of Wisconsin, Madison. It said "Doctor of Law". Then, underneath the degree title, in small italic print, it said Juris Doctor. The diploma had to EXPLAIN itself because it was written in plain English!
    Nosborne, JD
     
  11. Malcolm Jenner

    Malcolm Jenner New Member

    Re: Oxford University



    When I was a student at Oxford, almost ALL the higher degrees below Doctor were Bachelors (the only exception that I am aware of was Master of Surgery - MCh). The first degree for all students was BA (even in science and engineering). Taught higher degrees in arts were BPhil (still is in Philosophy), research higher degrees in arts were BLitt. Taught and research higher degrees in sciences were BSc. Specialist higher degrees included (and still include) BD, BMus and BCL. Medical students took BA in Animal Physiology as well as the combined BM, BCh.

    Malcolm S Jenner
     
  12. PSalmon

    PSalmon New Member

    My father completed his first degree (BSc) and then read for a second bachelor's at Oxford. He then went directly on to his PhD at University of London.
     
  13. Scott Henley

    Scott Henley New Member

    Oxford Standard

    The University of Oxford is unique in that all bachelor's degrees granted by the Univeristy are Bachelor of Arts (BA) degrees. Regardless if you study history, philosophy, physics or mathematics, you will receive a BA after three years of study.

    However, there are first degrees that are granted after four years of study, such as MEng, MBiochem, MChem, MMath, etc. These being first degrees, they are not considered postgraduate degrees in the UK. An UK MSc, MA (unless you're in Scotland) and PhD is always considered a postgraduate degree because it requires first degree training.

    However, to enter a PhD program in the UK, a British undergraduate degree is acceptable, bypassing the MA/MSc step completely. Most universities require the candidate to register in an MSc or MPhil course before transferring over the the PhD.

    The granting of an Oxford MA after a few years out of school is a tradition that goes back several centuries. Some would attribute it to the fact that an Oxford education is extremely rigorous and after a few years of work experience, a graduate would be at MA-level anyway.

    Let us not forget that a UK honours first degree is considered to be at American masters level anyways. Oxford being one of the most international universities in the world, the granting of an automatic MA seemed an appropriate way to level the playing field for Oxford graduates. I'm sure they would not want some American MA graduate thinking a Oxford BA was something less!

    Oxford, along with Cambridge, Bristol and Durham, are very unique universities with characters all their own. The quality of education is definately superior to most American institutions (Harvard, Princeton, Yale, et al, excluded of course).
     
  14. Bill Highsmith

    Bill Highsmith New Member

    That's a beautiful train of thought, Ken, er, Scott. So while shooting at the American revolutionists, the Brits were worried about the colonists' sorry-arsed MA degrees and decided to level the playing field? Hah! I'm sure they were keeping notes about the doings of the give-me-degrees-or-give-me-death regional accreditors, too.

    Aren't they superior to all other UK institutions, too?

    I'm sure the Bangladeshi institutions were happy to be left out of the list.

    How many institutions are included in the "et al"? 3000 or just 100?
     
  15. Kane

    Kane New Member

    Oh boy

    Let me state for the record. I LOVE UK SCHOOLS! but am I the only one that has noticed a "caste system" of education in the minds of many UK school promoters?

    Why should a three year degree from Oxford be anymore or less recognized then a three year degree from The University of Auckland or UCLA?
     
  16. adelheid

    adelheid New Member

    I have just received a C.V of someone who has a BA from an American University and then a MA from Oxford University.

    If I understand your thread correctly, the award of an Oxford MA is done automatically if requested by the Oxford BA holder after a few "troublefree" years, and all other studied Master's level degrees would be profesional degrees, auch as LLM, MLitt, etc.

    Can someone enlighten me, please?:)

    Adelheid
     
  17. Kane

    Kane New Member

    Oxford MA's are not academic qualifications

    The U.K. Quality Assurance Agency for England, Wales and Northern Ireland has stated that Cambridge and Oxford MA Degrees are NOT!!! academic qualifications.

    Please go to the discussion forum at www.nzqa.co.nz and read posts by "KaneWhite" (me *S*) I deal with this more indepthly.

    TO THE BOARD EXPERTS: I am unsure of one thing, can a person receive an MA from the University of Oxford without a prior Oxford BA?
     
  18. Peter French

    Peter French member

    When MA is really only BA

    I was talking with one of the NOOSR [National Office of Overseas Skills Recognition] people today in Canberra, and they clearly advised me to treat an Oxford MA as a BA

    ... and any first degree from UK that is a Masters as in Engineering and I think Architecture, to also treat as a Bachelors.

    Interesting ... and it was also pointed out in the Australian this week, that if you don't want to buy your way in to the lists of the Oxbridge 'elite' but in fact go further, you can actually get one of their Profs to do the thesis for you ... well you could as this bloke is now looking for a job - can't figure out why...and I throught that the Poms were developing a sense of humour ....
     
  19. Malcolm Jenner

    Malcolm Jenner New Member

    Re: Oxford MA's are not academic qualifications

    Yes. As indicated in an earlier post, someone with a Cambridge MA studying or teaching at Oxford can take an Oxford MA.

    I recall also from my undergraduate days that our new College Bursar, a retired General from the army with no academic qualifications was given an MA so that he could be part of the governing body of the College.

    Malcolm S Jenner
     
  20. Kane

    Kane New Member

    Shocking

    I am amazed some people would have the nerve to post an Oxford MA on their resume as an academic qualification. That might be construed as fraud.
     

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