Changes in Educating New Lawyers

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by Kizmet, Feb 11, 2013.

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  1. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

  2. JBjunior

    JBjunior Active Member

    "....... cannot solve its own problems, partly because of the vested interests of tenured professors tied to an antiquated system. Effective solutions, they insist, will have to be imposed from the outside."

    Sounds like what is dealt with in most higher education on any given day.
     
  3. BobbyJim

    BobbyJim New Member

    “The house is on fire,” he said. “We don’t want a report that sits on a shelf.”

    Sounds like maybe it's time to go back to the 'reading for law' apprenticeship with limited classroom and more actual casework.
     
  4. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    The answer is simple: There are too many lawyers. Who cares if there are less applicants? There should be. The market needs correction. They are focusing on creating more jobs where they're not needed in order to keep the tuition payments coming in. They need to focus on graduating less students. Maybe states need to relax their laws on distance education. That's the main reason why ABA won't accredit distance law programs.
     
  5. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    But wouldn't relaxing policies on distance learning actually increase the number of students?
     
  6. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Yes, it probably would. And that's not going to help.

    The fundamental problem facing US law schools is this:

    (1) the US job market can currently absorb around 20,000 to 25,000 new lawyers each year,
    (2) but US law schools are currently producing 45,000 to 50,000 new JDs each year.

    Unfortunately, reforming legal education (with 2-year programs, apprenticeships, distance learning, etc) is not going to solve the fundamental problem of oversupply. The hard truth is that we don't need law schools to change -- we need them to close. Not all of them, of course, but many of them.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2013
  7. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    Not every law school grad wants to be a lawyer. Not all lawyers want to be lawyers. Some will be politicians and some will be CEOs. I'm sure we'll see a rise in legal consultants, probably in their own specialized fields. Accounting Law, Nursing Law, Education Law. Internet Law. Fast Food Law. Perfect timing, too, since politicians seem to feel as if they can only make their mark on society by having their pet laws passed. It's a free-for-all in congress and in state legislature. Everyone gets their own law! Leaving the rest of us to die a violent death of full body papercuts.
     
  8. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    Perhaps if the schools simply raised their admissions standards this would decrease the number of law students but then, of course, there wouldn't be enought students to keep the schools alive. So, in the end it will mean death to the little law schools.
     
  9. A change to a curriculum is LONG overdue. I was surprised at how many of the individuals in my bar prep class that had 0 "real world experience". The other stuff will fix itself. It's just going to take time. The "Law School Bubble" is just one of many higher education bubbles out there. Many schools (both private and public) have benefited off of it. The drop in law school applicants is nothing more than graduates saying "Ok, enough is enough".

    Manaic raises a great point. While the majority of my classmates went on to become licensed a decent amount chose not to practice law (if that makes any sense). In reality, the "oversupply" mainly effects the bigger firms. Long gone are the "one stop shop days" where a firm would be contracted out by a client to handle all of their needs. That was just unfair. Clients just weren't getting the value of their money. Now the smaller firms have came in and taken those spots. As if to piecemeal everything out. The problem is that you have the majority of JD holders wanting to graduate and then go right into working for a nice size firm. The odds just aren't in most graduates favor of that happening.

    I have seen plenty of lawyers pass on good opportunities while in search for "the one". Which is beyond my understanding but "to each their own". I think most of that is due to student loan debt though. In my area of practice most individuals are under-served. They simply can't afford an attorney. It's a revolving circle.
     
  10. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Right now law schools are lowering, not raising, their admissions standards. Law school applications have crashed, so most schools have lowered their standards in order to keep their enrollments as high as possible:

     
  11. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    It doesn't make any sense to me. Does it make any sense to you?

    What are the costs to attend your law school for 3 years? The current tuition for 3 years is easily $100,000+, right? And if you are in school full-time, then there are 3 years of opportunity costs, which could easily be another $100,000+, right? So the total costs could easily be around a quarter million, right?

    If your goal is to find a job outside of the legal services industry, there are less expensive ways to do it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2013
  12. Johnny Aloha

    Johnny Aloha New Member

    It makes perfect sense to me why some want a JD but choose not to practice. My wife is an attorney and has been admitted to practice law in two states. However, she followed her passion and chose to be apart of the legal system at the beginning of the process: helping to make and shape laws. Among her many achievements in life, she'll be tesifying before congress in a few weeks. Her JD trained her mind to think a certain way and that has served her very well for 20 years.
     
  13. sanantone

    sanantone Well-Known Member

    Yes, it would; but, that is one option for law schools if they want to maintain their enrollment numbers. As stated by others, there are people who pursue law degrees, but don't want to become lawyers. I thought about getting a JD just to teach criminal justice, legal studies, and other related courses. A JD also makes one highly competitive for federal law enforcement agencies. The deterrent is that law programs are expensive and time consuming.
     
  14. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    OK, but that was 20 years ago. Law school costs have risen dramatically -- much faster than inflation -- over the past 20 years.

    Your wife probably paid much less for law school than today's law students, and she probably graduated with much less debt. Ask her about the cost of law school tuition when she was a student, and then compare with the tuition that her school charges today.

    And then you should also consider whether today's job market -- both legal and non-legal -- is as good as the job market in the 1990s.

    The bottom line is that law students have been paying more and more for a degree that is worth less and less. Obviously this can't go on forever. And it has finally reached the point where students are saying "enough".
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2013
  15. Johnny Aloha

    Johnny Aloha New Member

    What reference are you using? Thanks.
     
  16. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    See this site for changes in law school tuition since 1985.

    Here are typical 1985 law school tuition costs in 1985 dollars:
    Private school: $ 7,526 per year
    Public school: $ 2,006 per year (assuming state resident tuition)

    Now obviously those results need to be corrected for inflation. The cost of everything has roughly doubled since 1985. Here's what law school tuition would cost as of 2011 if it had risen at the same rate as inflation:

    1985 law school tuition costs in 2011 dollars;
    Private school: $ 15,733 per year
    Public school: $ 4,194 per year (assuming state resident tuition)

    Unfortunately, in reality, law school tuition has risen much faster than inflation. The increase is particularly pronounced at public schools, because states have been cutting subsidies to higher education. Here is what law school really costs today:

    2011 law school tuition costs in 2011 dollars;
    Private school: $ 39,184 per year
    Public school: $ 22,116 per year (assuming state resident tuition)
     
  17. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    If you go back even further, the changes are even more amazing:

    So in the late 1950s, annual tuition at a private law school was commonly less than $500, which is equivalent to about $3,400 in today's dollars. In those days, a law student could get an ordinary summer job at a store or restaurant, earn enough money over the summer to pay for a year of law school, and graduate debt-free. Lots of students did exactly that.

    But today, annual tuition at a private law school averages around $40,000. How many students can find a summer job that pays $40,000?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2013
  18. Johnny Aloha

    Johnny Aloha New Member

    Thanks again
     
  19. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    The law school at University of Michigan has posted its tuition from 1950-51 to 2008-09. Here are selected historical rates for Michigan residents for one semester of law school tuition:

    1950-51: $ 105
    1960-61: $ 175
    1970-71: $ 340
    1980-81: $ 1,004
    1990-91: $ 3,415
    2000-01: $ 10,478
    2008-09: $ 20,655

    Now obviously you have to adjust those numbers for inflation. But even if you do, the historical numbers are still ridiculously low by today's standards. For example, $105 in 1951 is only $921 today. So a semester at one of the country's top-ranked law schools in 1951 cost less than $1,000 in today's money.

    The chart ends in 2008-09, but tuition increases have continued. For 2012-13, the resident tuition rate at Michigan is $ 24,006 per semester. You need 6 semesters to get a JD degree.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2013
  20. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    You just might get your wish. These schools will not die easily and they're more likely to put out an online version of their program than to just fold up the tent and go away.
     

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