BS Chemistry , Education road map

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by EarlGrey, Jan 30, 2013.

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  1. EarlGrey

    EarlGrey New Member

    Hello everyone, I have been doing quite a bit of research on the web about how to attain a bachelor's degree quickly and cost effectively, I haven't been able to completely answer my own questions.....

    I've determined that I want to use CLEP to advance my education faster (please note: I have no prior college credit) and found that Thomas Edison State College, Excelsior State College, and Charter Oak State College accept CLEP. I also found that TESC only accepts students over 21 and Excelsior doesn't offer BS chemistry degrees, (please correct me if i am wrong on any of this)

    Which leaves only Charter Oaks College, on further inquiry into their website I found the requirements for a Bachelors of Science Chemistry degree at 120 Credits divided as 60 credits of liberal arts in General education requirements and 39 core chemistry credits broken up as follows

    " Introductory Chemistry with laboratory 8 credits
    Organic Chemistry with laboratory (not upper level) 8 credits
    Inorganic Chemistry with/without laboratory 3 or 4 credits
    Physical Chemistry with/without laboratory 3 or 4 credits
    Instrumental Analysis 4 credits
    Calculus 6 to 8 credits
    Physics 4 credits
    Capstone - CHE 499 (Culminating course in concentration) 3 credits
    TOTAL 39 "



    My questions are:

    What CLEP exams can I take to fulfill my General Education/Liberal Arts requirements?

    What CLEP exams can I take to whittle down the core chemistry credit requirements?

    Are there any other online colleges that offer a BS in Chemistry that I have overlooked?

    What would be the fastest and cost-effective route to obtain a degree?
     
  2. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator

  3. Randell1234

    Randell1234 Moderator

    The 6 credit general ed ones are for sure. There are a complete list on COSCs website (or there was anyway).
    I took these gen ed:
    DANTES Ethics
    CLEP History I
    CLEP Sociology
    CLEP English w/essay
    CLEP History and Social Science
    CLEP Humanities
    CLEP General Math
    CLEP Analy and Interp Lit

    I was able to complete 50+ credits in 6 weeks so you can move through a BS pretty quickly.

    As far as the chem classes - I have no idea.

    Here is my list of quick credits-
    August
    08-14-2002 DANTES Intro to Criminal Justice
    08-14-2002 DANTES Intro to Law Enforcement

    September
    09-04-2002 DANTES Intro to Computing
    09-04-2002 DANTES Organizational Behav
    09-04-2002 DANTES Envir and Humanity
    09-09-2002 DANTES – HR Management
    09-09-2002 DANTES Tech Writing
    09-09-2002 DANTES Intro to Business
    09-12-2002 DANTES Here’s to you Health
    09-17-2002 CLEP History and Social Science
    09-19-2002 ECE Labor relations
    09-22-2002 DANTES Ethics
    09-22-2002 DANTES MIS
    09-26-2002 ECE Production/Operation Mgt
    09-30-2002 CLEP English w/essay
     
  4. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    Applicants under 21 can be admitted on petition. I believe this happens all. the. time. with no problem. Also, you can start accumulating credits toward a TESC degree and only apply there toward the end, the better not to keep paying their high annual fees.

    This said, TESC doesn't offer a major in Chemistry. TESC offers a Learner Designed Area of Study pathway where you could propose an individualized program in chemistry. Learner Designed Area of Study would appear on your transcript, and not Chemistry. The closest organized programs are a major in Biology, and an interdisciplinary concentration in Natural Science/Mathematics.

    See Charter Oak's Master List of Exams. And you'll want to include in your sight similar exam programs other than CLEP, such as DSST, ECE, and UExcel.

    UExcel Calculus (4 sh) should meet part but not all of that calculus requirement. UExcel Physics (6 sh) should exceed the physics requirement.

    Your credit-by-examination options for a chemistry major or concentration are extremely limited, with one big exception. There's a CLEP in Chemistry, but that's just 6 sh and part of that 8 sh with-lab requirement.

    That big exception, which you should really look into, is with the GRE Subject Test in Chemistry. For a sufficient score, Charter Oak awards 24 semester hours of credit and has an alternate plan for the Chemistry concentration, described under "Note" here.

    For lab courses, besides schools in your local area, if you could swing a field trip to Alberta, Canada for short intensive lab sections, take a look at the Chemistry courses from Athabasca University. Athabasca, a public university with full standing in Canada, also holds U.S. regional accreditation, and its credits should transfer readily to CO without a foreign credential evaluation.

    "In a subject," I'm afraid, "other than chemistry." :tongue:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2013
  5. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    One word of caution here: a Bachelor's degree in General Studies with a concentration in chemistry from Charter Oak State College is probably not a degree that will greatly impress graduate programs in chemistry, or medical schools, or major employers in the chemical industry.

    Most chemistry students attend well-known B&M schools that are evaluated and approved by the American Chemical Society; such schools typically have active research programs (often with undergraduate participation), selective admissions, and extensive major requirements, including options for specialization. For comparison, COSC has zero research reputation, is not selective, is not approved by the American Chemical Society, and requires a bare minimum of chemistry courses and labs. Given a choice, most graduate programs and employers will probably prefer the traditional degree.

    If you just need a bachelor's degree, and want to learn about chemistry, then COSC may be just fine. A COSC degree might also be an appropriate qualification for teaching science at the high school level. But if you are seriously considering a professional career in chemistry, then COSC might not be the ideal choice.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2013
  6. rebel100

    rebel100 New Member

    Yeah, Jonathan and Caldog are both spot on in their advice. What's your intent?

    You can complete all the Gen eds at COSC with 5-6 CLEP/DSST exams, a free ethics course through saylor.org and an ALEKS math or two.

    There will be both the Cornerstone and Capstone to take.

    Your trouble and expense will be in finding the science courses with labs, and at the appropriate level (at least 15 credits will likely have to be Chemistry at the 300-400 level) and another 18 UL courses plus the Capstone to round out 30 UL credits. You also need sufficient LL sciences to get into those UL courses. COSC may offer some of these, but it's going to be expensive and the online labs seem to be problematic in many cases.

    What state are you in? have yu considered the local CC/State U using CLEP/DSST to knock out some of the credits?
     
  7. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    Despite my enthusiasm for Charter Oak, CalDog is right, as is rebel.
     
  8. EarlGrey

    EarlGrey New Member

    Wow, I must say. I am blown away by all of your expertise in the matter and to answer your questions I would have to say my intent would be receiving a quick degree to further my current career. I don't really need any specialized bachelor's degree I guess my outlook on receiving a BS in Chemistry is the idea of transferring it into a different field of work and expanding the degree with further education, possibly a Pharm D.
    However, hearing all your responses it sounds as though the credibility of such a BS Chemistry from Charter Oak would be in low standings.

    My next questions are these: What kind of credible degree could I obtain (if any) from these schools ?

    And,

    What would your recommendation be for a degree from these schools that allows continuing education such as Master's programs ?

    I know I sound like a kid who want's it all quickly, but I just mean to use my time effectively.


    Thanks again for all of your imput guys, It's really appreciated
     
  9. dlbb

    dlbb Active Member

    My brother has a master's in Chemistry. I would question the value of the degree you described. I am doubtful any bachelor's in Chemistry could be completed online and be of much if any value. You need to be somewhere where you can physically be present to do the labs. I would use examinations (with which I have little familiarity) or do online courses to satisfy general education requirements, but would try to go to an actual brick and mortar school to complete the Chemistry major portion of your degree. I would be suspicious of online chemistry "labs." It is the kind of degree that you would need to intend in person; anything offered online that purports to be a chemistry degree would likely be spurious and of dubious value. To reiterate, obtain college credit via exams or online coursework to satisfy the general education requirements and then transfer to an appropriate college where you could pursue a degree in chemistry.

    I would also caution you, at your age, on the value of spending money at a school such as the one you listed. I would seek a non-profit private or state college.
     
  10. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator


    Without wanting to argue with what has been said, I think that you are misinterpreting the feedback you're receiving. If you were to follow your plan the degree that you would receive would in fact be a credible degree. However, a Bachelors degree in General Studies with a concentration in Chemistry is not the equivalent to a Bachelors degree in Chemistry. This is similar to my own situation where my degree in Mechanical Engineering Technology is not the same as a degree in Mechanical Engineering. However, the fact that they are not equivalent does not discredit or invalidated the General Studies (or Eng. Tech.) degree. You could earn the degree in the manner you've described (it may be difficult to find those upper level lab courses) as a part of the package that would get you into a PharmD program but you might need to add some other courses on top. Looking at the PharmD admissions criteria should give you an idea of which supplemental courses you'd need. So don't be discouraged, your plan could still work as long as you realize that the two degrees are not equivalent and you will likely need to add some post-Bachelors degree coursework.
     
  11. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    dlbb, every school discussed in this thread is a "non-profit private or state college." And Charter Oak's chemistry concentration requires at least two chemistry lab courses at the upper level, third- or fourth-year. Charter Oak doesn't offer these online, and it seems reasonably unlikely that any other regionally accredited college does. Lower level chemistry lab courses are more widely offered online, but these won't meet Charter Oak's requirements.
     
  12. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    Earl,

    Kizmet is right. Every degree from the Big Three is credible. COSC and TESC are public state colleges; Excelsior College is a non-profit private college. dlbb's implication is mistaken.

    Any credible degree with a major or major-equivalent concentration in chemistry – perhaps putting aside degrees in chemistry education, which the Big Three don't offer – will require upper-level lab courses in chemistry. Charter Oak does. You'd need a high-level chemistry lab component, almost certainly on the ground somewhere.

    Admission requirements for graduate or professional schools vary widely by subject, and to some extent within subjects. Pharmacy programs require a common set of prerequisite undergraduate courses, and some individual pharmacy programs may add others. Some master's programs in business will require extensive undergraduate business coursework. Some won't.

    Try to think more specifically about where you might want to go, and work backwards from there.
     
  13. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    See, a Charter Oak degree in chemistry isn't quantitatively a "less credible" degree than the typical, B&M school degree in chemistry CalDog describes. It's a qualitatively different thing.

    Perhaps more to the point, it represents a different range. The ranges that the two categories represent overlap, and your COSC degree may be more or less impressive than some B&M degrees, including in chemistry.

    For instance, let's say that as a Charter Oak student you meet those upper-level lab course requirements in chemistry as a visiting student at Smith State University. Work with me and imagine that SSU, which I just made up, has a strong chemistry department.

    If you do well in those SSU courses, earn high grades, impress your faculty and earn strong references, and you also do well in the rest of your COSC degree, you could come out as all this a more impressive candidate, in many graduate or professional school admission competitions, than those of your classmates in those SSU courses – earning SSU degrees – who earned less impressive grades and references individually.

    Of course in this scenario, to get some of the advantages of B&M courses, you're accepting some the constraints of finding a B&M school who will let you in as a visiting student, paying B&M school tuition, getting there in person, and doing their traditional workloads on their traditional schedules. I've also mentioned Athabasca University, whose Centre for Science offers lab science courses in person on short intensive, non-traditional schedules, at a few locations in Canada.

    I should mention another model student that a Charter Oak degree in chemistry might really make sense for. Say someone started working in chemistry lab in industry on the strength of an associate's degree, or military background, or moxie!, etc.

    Our candidate here might well be able to document meeting learning objectives in their work environment that matched learning objectives for one or more college courses in chemistry. Charter Oak has programs for Portfolio Assessment and Contract Learning where Charter Oak-appointed faculty can review or supervise such learning, and on approval the school can grant credit for it.
     
  14. dlbb

    dlbb Active Member

    The candidate here is under the age of 21 and likely does not have substantive work history. He would be better served satisfying those education requirements through actual coursework, even if capable of passing tests.

    He should also bear in mind financial aid constraints. I may be mistaken, but I do not believe he would qualify for financial aid for courses at another school. Thus, he would have to pay out of pocket for those upper level chemistry courses. At his age, it would be pointless to embark on such a journey. The upper level chemistry courses would be so intensive and demanding that he might as well be part of that college, better enabling him to make meaningful friendships and relationships with his peers. Those could serve him well later as far networking.

    Perhaps a local state brick and mortar college with an online extension program would better serve the candidate. He could take many courses online and attend those he needs to in person.

    The scenario you described would be more viable for an older, non-traditional student whose schedule may be more restrictive. Of course I do not know the particulars of this student's needs, but I would advise a younger person to take a more traditional route. Certainly incorporate some distance courses to help accelerate things and allow for enhanced flexibility.
     
  15. Jonathan Whatley

    Jonathan Whatley Well-Known Member

    Actually, Charter Oak is great with financial aid "consortium" agreements, where students enrolled at Charter Oak can have financial aid assigned to a second school where they take courses that they then transfer back to Charter Oak. rebel100 has discussed this at degreeforum.net. Of course the second school has to agree.

    But…

    Likely, yeah.

    This is for chemistry. Earl, if you're not that intensely interested in a full degree in chemistry, there are certainly other majors or equivalents that the Big Three, extensive testing-out, or distance learning generally, are more naturally fit for.
     
  16. ryoder

    ryoder New Member

    I know someone who has a bachelors in some liberal arts stuff and is taking the required undergrad prereqs to satisfy PharmD entrance requirements. I can ask her about the process but she is taking the classes at the community college, so I don't think the PharmD program cares that much. Or at least in her case she doesn't think it cares much.

    It depends on how hard the programs are to get into.
     
  17. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    PharmD programs can be hard to get into.

    For example, here are the annual stats for
    University of the Pacific in Stockton, CA:

    1,900 - 2000 applications
    250 - 330 candidates interviewed
    about 200 enrolled

    So that's about 10 applications for every spot in the class.
     
  18. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    It's an interesting job track though. Some people wind up working in places like CVS or Walgreens which is, in some ways, a grind but it's generally clean and bright, local (small commutes) and doesn't pay great but I guess you can pay your bills. Then you've got a little more hardcore stuff where the job is in a hospital and it's not about sales but it's about insurance (hey, wait a minute I thought I was getting away from, oh never mind.) Any ways, a hospital work environment is VERY different than retail and that can be a good thing, depending on your personality, etc. Then there are niches (medical schools, pharm companies, selling steroids to NFL/MLB/NBA idiots). Frankly, I think I'd like it. I go to Walgreens for my drugs and they're very nice, very efficient and helpful beyond the point of necessity. Just nice people. I appreciate that.
     

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