NOVA Southeastern Shepard Broad Law Center - 3 online degrees available (ABA/RA)

Until today, I thought the only online ABA/RA online grad degrees in law were offered by Widener University School of Law (Corporate and Business Law, Health Law), Loyola University Chicago School of Law (Business and Corporate Governance, Health), and University of Tulsa College of Law (Indian Law). Then I came across NOVA Southeastern Shepard Law Center. They offer three graduate degrees (Health Law, Education Law, Employment Law) with some electives available to further a concentration. These are 30-hour programs at $575/hr. At $17,250 it comes in at $9000 to $10,000 less than Widener or Loyola. Thought it may be of interest to others. Shepard Broad Law Center

 

There are also a number of online LL.M. programs offered by ABA-approved law schools. In fact, some law schools have both online LLM programs and online Master's programs -- everything except the JD is available online. For example, Vermont Law School offers both an online LLM in Environmental Law, and an online Master's in Environmental Law and Policy.

Technically, ABA does not accredit or approve LLM or Master's degrees in law -- ABA only approves the JD*. So the LLM and MELP degrees at Vermont Law School are not actually accredited or approved by ABA, despite the fact that VLS has an ABA-approved JD program. ABA's scope only covers the JD.
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*since it always gets pointed out, I will acknowledge that there is a single exception, the US Army JAG School, which has an ABA-approved LL.M. because that's the only degree that it offers.

 

Don't you already have to be an attorney to enter the LL.M programs? I was looking at grad programs for non-lawyers.

 

Your post was about "online grad degrees in law" from ABA/RA schools. The LL.M. is a "grad degree in law", and it is offered online by some ABA/RA schools, so it seemed relevant.

But generally, yes, you do need to be a lawyer (though not necessarily a US JD) to be admitted to an LLM program. So if you meant law school grad programs for non-lawyers specifically, then LLM programs won't work.

The VLS MELP program might meet your criteria. You might also be interested in the online Master of Legal Studies from the University of West Virginia, although this degree may not be conferred by the law school.

 

Outside the U.S., LL.M.s more often admit non-attorneys. The University of London International Programme is a one major option, and there are others in the U.K.

Osgoode Hall Law School at York University in Toronto offers LL.Ms. in a number of specializations with a videoconferencing option. Osgoode will consider non-attorneys "provided they have a university degree, a superior academic record and significant work experience related to the specialization for which they have applied."

 

Yes, grad school programs for non-lawyers is what I meant. Thank you for bringing clarity to my initial post.

In addition to the programs you mentioned, there is also Champlain College. I really like their program a lot, but if I decide to do a grad degree in law, I think I'd prefer that it be from am ABA law school. Yes, I know the ABA doesn't actually accredit any other degree except for the JD, but perception goes a long way and if reviewing a resume or bio, I think a grad degree from a law school carries a bigger punch. Also, Champlain is up there in price along with Widener and Loyola (though I think the Champlain curriculum is more interesting).

In any event, the reason for my initial post was to let the board know of the NOVA SE programs. I wasn't aware of them, nor have I seen them mentioned on this board. They're very affordable compared to the programs that are mentioned more frequently.

The VLS MELP is too far outside my interest and career area. Environmental Law is really a specialty that would never be be useful in my endeavors. I've really been looking more for corporate and business law, which is why Widener and Loyola were so appealing. The employment law option at NOVA isn't exactly business and corporate law, but more of an element within it. However, for the price, I might be able to make it work if they allow a couple of business law electives. Otherwise, I like the broad based degrees like Champlain and other schools that offer Legal Studies. I'll definitely check out WVU to see what the price is like, and the curriculum.

 

This may sound like a really ignorant question and possibly one I've already asked, but what would these master's programs qualify you actually to do with them (if you don't already have a JD)?

In other words, you obviously cannot practice law, but I'm assuming that you could provide legal consultations? Vermont's Master of Environmental Law and Policy, Master of Energy Regulation and Law, and Master of Science Degree in Health Law (http://www.nsulaw.nova.edu/online/index.cfm) degree both look really great, but I guess my concern would be why would a large hospital/energy company/oilfield company hire someone with these master's degrees versus a fully licensed attorney. Seems like the legal field is already bursting at the seams, and competition for these types of jobs is already fierce.

Sorry for going off topic somewhat Pug, this just seemed like the perfect thread to ask something I've questioned for a long time. BTW, all of these programs listed look very unique and honestly look very interesting.

 

This is from Nova Southeastern's website about these three degrees: "The Online Non-Lawyers Graduate programs are currently not open to attorneys, foreign attorneys, or law students in the US or any other country. These programs do not prepare students to practice law or to sit for any bar examination."

 

Apparently one of the reasons (there are several) that the job market for lawyers is so bad is because companies are increasingly hiring non-lawyers to do day-to-day legal work. Obviously there are some complex situations where you still need a licensed attorney -- but there are also a lot of routine situations where you just need some specialized legal knowledge. One law professor puts it like this:

Now, maybe it's true that in today's legal job market, an employer could find a genuine licensed attorney for a relatively low salary. But it turns out that many employers don't actually like dealing with lawyers, except when necessary. Some employers would actually prefer the "BA with specialized training", unless the position specifically requires a function that only a licensed attorney can perform.

 

Caldog,

All good points. In my business, and I imagine others, employers are always looking for people that can perform multiple functions. For example, a VP of Operations may also perform legal tasks as you described. Further, employers are looking for employees that can work competently with attorneys on special cases and in certain circumstances. This way, the company is not solely reliant on outside counsel for direction. While it's true that businesses could probably hire attorneys for the same cost as a HR Manager, the attorney would lack the business and industry experience to perform in other rolls and capacities.

 

Interesting take and I can appreciate that to a degree. That was another of my concerns/questions. If you can hire a licensed attorney for the same price that had the exact knowledge base to draw from as the MJ holder (health care, environmental, etc.), it just seems as though you would want the JD.

For instance, you have a JD with 15 years experience in environmental law and an MJ holder with 15 years of environmental law consulting. You can get both for the exact same price. Would you choose the JD or the MJ? I just think that with the current job market for attorneys, you would hire the JD. Good discussion.

 

Soupbone, if that was the choice, I think you'd go with the JD. However, I don't think that's the choice. Using your example, more and more companies are hiring department managers, directors, senior managers, and executives, that in addition to their "normal" responsibilities, also have a degree of expertise in the legalities of their field. They're kind of getting 1.5 for the price of one. The other .5 comes into play when an actual attorney needs to be retained for very specific, specialized, non-routine issues. A JD with 15 years of experience could easily handle all of the legal questions that came up day to day, but they would lack the business knowledge and experience to do most of the other tasks. For example, I could hire a JD to be my HR Director and I would probably never have another third-party legal bill. However, he/she would likely be lost when it came to benefits administration, 401k administration, payroll processing, training, new-employee orientations, recruiting, and all of the other things that require experience and company knowledge. Plus, most attorneys I know, even those who are jobless, would find it beneath them to enter payroll information into a database, talk to someone about sick leave, perform preliminary interviews, administer pre-hire tests, etc.

 

Not necessarily. For example, the MJ may have more specialized training than the JD. Let's say, for example, that you get a master's degree in Environmental Law and Policy from Vermont Law School. That's 30 credits, all in environmental law topics. That's certainly fewer than the 87 credits you would need for the JD -- but how many of those JD credits represent environmental law specifically? Probably less than 30 (Vermont Law does have a joint JD/MELP program, but most JD graduates don't get that dual degree). Of course, it's true that the JD has more general legal training, but maybe an employer is looking for the specialized knowledge.

Furthermore, the reality is some employers discriminate against the JD degree. There are common perceptions (I'm not saying these are necessarily true) that JDs are (1) too argumentative; (2) too nit-picky; (3) more likely to file lawsuits against their employer; and (4) more likely to leave if a better opportunity comes up. Sure, the current job market for attorneys is poor, but what if it improves?

And of course there is also (5) "I've just hated lawyers ever since my contested divorce".

 

Caldog, all great points. That's really why I decided not to go with the JD. As you will recall, I was asking questions about online JD programs a couple of months ago. I decided (1) that the online JD didn't make sense, not because of its limited utility outside of California, but because other practicing attorneys will not view the online JD as legit. I talked to several of my attorney colleagues. (2) A local brick and mortar law school was simply WAY too expensive to be an option for my needs. (3) As you mentioned, the JD is a very broad degree that covers everything: constitutional law, civil law, criminal law, contracts, torts, legal writing, etc. In contrast, the MJ offers more depth in a specific area of law and may therefore be preferable to an employer.

Plus, if I got the JD I'd have to stop vilifying lawyers!