Master's under $3000 and other links

I've added the beginnings of the links to value priced distance learning masters degrees and good meta link sites. Some of these may be well known to some: others not. Sheffield Hallam University offers the MA in Imperialism and Culture. Pure self indulgence perhaps, but accessible to most at a snip under $3000 complete. M.Ed. from USQ at $3600 is fairly well known. The crop of LLM degrees from Northumbria University at $4500 including all books, perhaps less so - no JD or LLB required, and visits are optional. Also the iCDL site, a well designed comprehensive database of UK DL offerings for those interested but who may not be aware of it. The GoodGuides, of course . . .

Someone had wondered in a recent thread about the conferring body of the programs offered by the Global University Alliance (GUA), and specifically, the University of Derby MSc in Information Technology. This program conferred directly by Derby and (I'm told by Derby) there is no reference to the mode of delivery or to GUA on the diploma, mark sheets, or any other certifying documentation. Degree is identical to that issued to residential students.

Prices listed on BA in 4 Weeks site are correct and current, I believe. You may find other prices quoted elsewhere that are out of date. Also, though the programs cited require no campus visits, that isn't always as clear as it might be in the official literature. Full listing being constructed at http://geocities.com/ba_in_4_weeks/masterslist.html

Some offerings in the completed list will be the focus of the new series, "7 weeks study to an accredited Master's degree", which should start to appear this year.

Lawrie Miller
BA in 4 Weeks - a non commercial resource for adult learners
http://geocities.com/BA_in_4_Weeks

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Note that although it may take as little as seven weeks of study to complete the work required of certain master's degrees, the programs detailed in the forthcoming series will require anywhere from eight months to two years for official completion, and the actual work will of necessity be spread over that extended period.

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what about UoL master degrees ? Must be reasonnable too, when I see the cost of a BA ...

 

Indeed they are, but I figured they had already been reviewed to death elsewhere, and I have done so at length in the past (see AED 1998/1999). Additional issue for some may be the inclusion of the term "external" on the certifying documentation. London says the medium of course delivery does not impact the quality of their degrees, and whether they be earned as an internal or external student, they are the same. In that case one wonders why they feel it necessary to differentiate them on the certifying documentation by inclusion of (effectively) the mode of delivery.

The less charitable may surmise the governing ethos to be that candor in business is no virtue, and hypocrisy in pursuit of a buck is no vice.
(apologies to B. Goldwater)

UoL has some very fine offerings, but I wanted to highlight other institutions DL programs, less well known, rather than giving the usual suspects yet another stir.

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Well...

I am giving my favourite suspect another stir *LOL* I believe a University of London LLM runs for 2024 pounds ($2912 USD) I believe the other Master degree are comparable.

 

Re: Well...

No need for belief alone, since the costs can be easily ascertained by reviewing the appropriate web pages.

Taking into account necessary, customary and usual minimum credit card charges for currency conversion of 1% to 2% of program total charges, using current exchange rates, the cost of the UoL LLM is just over $3000. In addition, it is suggested in the UoL external LLM web site that up to another $450 per year be budgeted for books. That's a total of $900 over two years bringing costs to around $3900. Admission to the UoL LLM requires an undergraduate law degree or a degree with a substantial Law component. The LLM degrees detailed in the first post require NO law degree. That was part of their attraction.

Other UoL master's degrees are generally not comparable in price to the LLM degree. The actual costs are readily available in the relevant online UoL literature. At random:

MSc Occupational Psychology $5692 (requires acceptable undergrad Psych degree or joint Psych degree)

MSc Org Behaviour $5692 (same as above but for non Psych undergrads)

MSc Financial Management $10,222

MSc Public Policy and Management $10,222

MA Distance Learning $8505

MSC Agricultural Economics $13,410

MBA $10,950

MSc Environmental Management $10,110

MSc Drugs and Alcohol $6960

MSc Economics and Rural Change $10,410

MSc Development Finance $10,222

Lawrie Miller
BA in 4 Weeks
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Hey Lawrie

I stand corrected on the non-law related Master Degrees. I should not have assumed they were all comparable. I AM SO ASHAMED!!! *S*

1) I do use the term "believe" since any university may and sometimes will raise their tuition fees (A Canadian specialty). I am well aware of the costs of the U of L legal programs (that seems to be the only degree I know the cost of eh Lawrie*S*)

2) The U of L LLM does not necessarily require a law degree either. The entry requirement for the LLM states the following: “You must have obtained a first degree, in a subject appropriate to the LLM, of an acceptable university outside the European Union, with a result considered by the University of London to be equivalent to at least Second Class Honours.” Lawrie such information can be easily ascertained by reviewing the appropriate web pages *LOL* just teasing. On a serious note I would be a tad concerned about an LLM holder without a prior LLB or JD, in my opinion it would be like building the house without setting the foundation.

3) The entry requirement for the LLM offered by the University of Northumbria says to enter the LLM you should at least have: “A degree or comparable professional qualification. The degree may be a non-law degree.” (In some cases work experience may be substituted) This applies to LLM degrees in commercial, European Union, medical and international law. Unless specializing in one of those areas it may not be worth it, then again maybe it would be, Northumbria seems to be a good school. I am glad you mentioned it.

4) I am aware if you take into consideration, the exchange rates that the cost will likely rise above $3000.00 (Especially with the Canadian exchange rate…OUCH!) However if you do not use credit cards (and not everyone in the world does) and buy your textbooks locally or borrow them from a law library you may see even that cost tone down. However, since the U of L LLM was still an affordable law degree I mentioned it. DAMN THOSE EXCHANGE RATES!!!

Kane

 

Re: Re: Well...

This is because the LLM is wholly assessed by examinations and no tutor's marked assignments (TMAs) are included in the programme. As to other UoL master degree programmes, students have to submit assignments for marking and comments. As a result, the cost of those programmes would be much higher than that of LLM.

 

Re: Hey Lawrie

Indeed, and that is why I stated, "Admission to the UoL LLM requires an undergraduate law degree or a degree with a substantial Law component." Emphasis added. I believe the restrictions are quite tough. By contrast, the Northumbria LLM does not require a law degree at all.

The same argument could be made where students enter any field which is normally considered vocational, at graduate level, without appropriate background: Psychology, Education, Theology, and even Business (MBA), spring to mind. Yet every day neophytes enter advanced programs in these disciplines and seem to do all right. It seems to me many LLM degrees offered are cross disciplinary in nature or, where not, then are still used to complement a learner's existing expertise in another field. There is a subspecies of LLM known as "Advance Legal Practice in . . . ", that may be the exclusive domain of the learned. Anyway . . .

I think the LLM European Union Law program, for instance, might prove useful to many non lawyers in business or public service either in Europe or the US, or elsewhere, if they trade or treat with EU member states, organizations or businesses. An understanding of free movement of goods and services, and free movement of labor within the Community, EU intellectual property Law, and EU Constitutional Law, could be invaluable.

Many who do business across other borders would benefit from the International Trade Law program, and what doctor or health administrator could not benefit from immersion in advanced topics of Medical Law?

Problem is though, that if you do not use a credit card to handle the transaction the cost will likely be significantly higher, not lower. The typical credit card premium is 1% or 2% plus another "bank charge" or fixed charge. Total costs would probably be 3% or so, and maybe a bit more on some cards. Cost of using another instrument - bankers draft or foreign exchange money order, or even stuffing exchanged cash in an envelope, would total 5% to 8%. The cheapest method by far for the ordinary punter is to use a credit card. But yes, the UoL LLM is certainly an option if[/b] you qualify for entry and if you are happy having "External" written across your diploma and final mark sheets.

The Northumbria LLM does not require a law degree from entry, nor even a degree with a substantial Law component. It does require a brief statement of purpose and two academic references in addition to the usual transcripts and copies of diplomas (yes, they will want to see your diplomas).


Lawrie Miller
http://geocities.com/BA_in_4_Weeks

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Re: Re: Master's under $3000 and other links

I think that this thread and the other one regarding the 'easiest/least work' masters are interesting. For one reason, we are not talking '..I wanna PhD...I wannabe an akidemmick...'

I admit that the education system is very different there in that the professional requirements are dealt with at Masters level unlike at bachelors level here, and in UK. This then brings up the question of the advisablility and suitability of a non US masters.

It appeasr to a distant readeer that any masters will do, and the cheapest and one with the least work in the best. Presumably this meets a vocational or pfoessional requirement [?], and if so, doesn't 'quality' and 'content' come in to it somewhere?

For example - what really is the point doing an LLM if you are [1] not a lawyer, or [2] are not attempting to create an 'impression' that could be, or be very close to be 'passing off'.

There are masters and then there are masters. There is a need for a masters, and usually the institution is sought that meets the specific requirement, and then a faculty that supports the line of masterly inquiry. To me this is more important that the actual institution itself, as i am seeking ultimate utility for my time and effort. Some masters are but repackaged undergraduate units, and in this context UK is the same as Australia. Just look at the entry requirement - if this is another disciplien or application area, is the study really 'masters' level?

I will give a simple example - the Mster of Accounting/Accountancy.

US - the degree containes the same units that we do in undergraduate study fro CPA entry - thterfore no matter where it is from, it compared to an Australian/UK undergraduate degree.

CSU - the degree is a conversion masters for someone coming in from a non accounting discipline. It therefore compares to the undergraduate accounting degree without the fluff and electives. It is essentially an undegraduate suite re-labelled.

UNE - the degree is now defunct and is replaced by an MEc stream. The requirements were and are, a solid undergraduate degree, several years senior experience, and then 72 units of work of which over half is very advanced [compare to a standard masters degree of 48 units]

Melbourne - their MAcc follows the UNE requirements.

This illustrates a point that I made some time ago, that i don't even want to see your diploma. I need to see your transcript, because as an employer/fellow academic/teacher I need to know what you really studied and at what level. As for an LLM, well, to my way of thinking it isn't really worth much without the underlying LLB - it is but a doubtful detour into an unknown territory, and if the student is successful, was it really an LLM?

I will go for substance every time.

 

Hey Lawrie

I am confident in showing my prior undergraduate degrees. I have a BS from Columbia Pacific University and a BA from the University of San Moritz...who would not accept those? *LOL*

 

Peter, I thought the AQF would even out the depth of a “Master’s” degree. But this doesn’t seem to be the case.

I was interested in your comments about a “conversion” Master’s degree that is really at the undergraduate level. I encountered this myself when I was looking at bridge programs from chemical engineering to computer science. I found that different universities offered essentially the same suite of courses, but that some would call the resulting qualification an undergraduate certificate or diploma, whereas others would call it a Master’s degree. Such pseudodegrees seem to exist not only in the US, but also in Australia and the U.K.

I suppose that every barrel has a bottom that can be scraped. If so motivated, one can easily search through the dregs of academia to find an accredited pseudodegree that can be completed without too much effort. As you say, the best defence is to scrutinize transcripts carefully.

Groetjes,
Gert

 

Lawrie,

Good information. THanks for compiling these resources. I have enjoyed browsing through many of the links.

John

 

I think the real test of a degree is how it is valued by qualified third parties.

This test appears in two ways: as a pre-requisite for professional registration or as a prerequisite at a university for further study.

I have purposefully left out a third test, as a pre-requisite for employment, because we can never be sure that the hirer really understands the degree’s worth: for example, not understanding accreditation, jurisdictional differences, one “masters” from another, etc.

If one is looking for employment in an area – say, law, accounting, town planning, whatever – look for a degree that is recognised by the respective professional association or licensing authority. It is not a perfect test, and it is not necessarily a measure of quality, but it will mean your degree will stand up to scrutiny. Even if you never take up the professional membership.

I agree with PF regarding an LLM: unless it qualified me for entry as a lawyer, I would not bother taking it on.

I once met a person who had a post-graduate degree (a grad diploma, I think) in “international law” from an Australian university. I met this person when she had just arrived in my home town to take up a position with the Australian Government’s Oceans Office. By way of polite conversation, I asked her what her job was (as you do). In her first sentence to me she said that she worked in the area of international treaties, and that she had a law qualification but was not a “real lawyer” because she "only" had a grad-dip.

It struck me straight away that she felt compelled up-front to defend her degree. I didn’t hold it against her – I didn’t even ask her what her qualifications were, only what her job was – but all the same, she felt she had to tell me that she did not have a "real" law qualification and was not a "real lawyer".

Clearly, such degrees do have a purpose because not everyone wants to practice law, but they may need some legal knowledge, just as my new friend did. In fact, her degree seemed to suit her circumstances well. Her cringe was unnecessary but she felt it, and because she did so did I, nonetheless.

Maybe she felt, or had been made to feel, inferior at her office whenever the "real" lawyers came in?

God (or Allah) strike me down, but as a qualified accountant (that is, with a recognised degree and CPA membership) I CAN'T help not feeling a bit superior to someone else working in accounting if they are not similarly qualified, even if they know more about the subject matter than I (which is often).

The most fashionable designer of new homes in my suburb is not a registered architect. Sure he's getting all the work (maybe that is all that counts) but my architect friends are always quick to point out that he is not a "real" architect. Are we snobs? Egotistical? lacking in substance? Sure. But that seems to be human nature. Have a look and see how often Steve Levicoff mentions his accredited doctorate. He's got it and most of the other posters haven't; and doesn't he like to remind us.

I don't have a problem with that; I'm as guilty as the next person.

The point? For me, make sure you never feel like you have to defend your degree. If you take, for example, a grad-dip in law or even an unaccredited doctorate, make sure you can look someone in the eye and be proud of it. If you don’t think you can, leave it be.

Kind regards

 

Re: Re: Re: Master's under $3000 and other links

The point would be to gain specialized legal knowledge that would augment, complement and magnify, an individual's existing academic and career experiences, then apply that newly formed skills construct to better their own lot and that of society. It's called synergy, Peter.

In more detail, I see in a post immediately prior to the one in which you asked this question I wrote:

"I think the LLM European Union Law program, for instance, might prove useful to many non lawyers in business or public service either in Europe or the US, or elsewhere, if they trade or treat with EU member states, organizations or businesses. An understanding of free movement of goods and services, and free movement of labor within the Community, EU intellectual property Law, and EU Constitutional Law, could be invaluable.

Many who do business across other borders would benefit from the International Trade Law program, and what doctor or health administrator could not benefit from immersion in advanced topics of Medical Law? "

Lawrie Miller

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Re: Re: Re: Master's under $3000 and other links

Well, here again, let me repeat:

" The same argument could be made where students enter any field which is normally considered vocational, at graduate level, without appropriate background: Psychology, Education, Theology, and even Business (MBA), spring to mind. Yet every day neophytes enter advanced programs in these disciplines and seem to do all right. It seems to me many LLM degrees offered are cross disciplinary in nature or, where not, then are still used to complement a learner's existing expertise in another field. There is a subspecies of LLM known as "Advance Legal Practice in . . . ", that may be the exclusive domain of the learned."

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Re: Re: Re: Master's under $3000 and other links

Yet, ironically, Peter, these words and others you have written in this thread evoke a memory of you, at least for a time, passing off your American Coastline University PhD as the real thing. I know that to be true, for I am looking at an email from you dated Sun, 22 Aug 1999 13:26:12, where you style yourself, "Dr P J French".

After that, you had a romance with MIGS that led me and, I believe others, to think you were a student there. When it comes to "quality", and "content", and, well . . . "passing off", the less charitable may opine that it is you who has gone through a less than rigorous "conversion program". On the way to the University of Damascus, no doubt.

Lawrie Miller
Author of the bachelor degree guide series BA in 4 Weeks
and of the forthcoming master's degree guide for adult learners:
The Complete Bottom Feeder

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No. The object is to produce graduates with multi-disciplinary skills. In the case of the LLM it is not to produce lawyers, but graduates of other fields who are also skilled in some specialist aspect of law. The LLM is not offered as a Law degree, entitling the holder to sit the Bar, rather, it is a complement to some existing, skill set.

But generally, one isn't looking for employment in areas that require state certification or licensing, as is the case in the three examples you cite. No lawyer is being produced in an LLM program, and no LLM provider pretends things are otherwise. If I am, say, a placement specialist looking to recruit foreign workers to fill positions within the EU, my interests lies in placing personnel with employers. If I have a good knowledge of that area of EU employment law that directly affects my livelihood and prospects of success, I may do better than if I am ignorant of that area of the law. The more I know of the many rules, regulations, directives, and trends in case law, the better things will be for me, my clients, and perhaps the economy in general. The LLM offers non lawyers the capacity to render scholarly judgments in a specialized area of law. They are not lawyers nor are they pretending to be lawyers simply because they hold an LLM. They are employees, employers, and entrepreneurs who possess multi-disciplinary skills that provide them extra needed leverage in a competitive environment.

Many who do business across other borders and who would benefit from the LLM in International Trade Law program might disagree with you, and what doctor or health administrator could not benefit from immersion in advanced topics of Medical Law? Individuals with such skills do not replace lawyers, they complement them.


Lawrie Miller
http://geocities.com/BA_in_4_Weeks

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Re: Peter French

Hello Lawrie:

You make several valid points and I found myself agreeing with much of what you say.

However, I do not believe it is going to accomplish much to discredit Mr French on the grounds he may have an unaccredited doctorate or promoted a school he chose not to enrol with. We would probably get much further by dealing with the substance of the arguments themselves, something you seem more then capable of doing.

By the way, I enjoyed your website. Keep up the good work.

Kane

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Master's under $3000 and other links

How observant of you Lawrie


For the record my Australia professional qualifications are in:

Accounting
Industrial Engineering
Banking & Finance
Teaching

Most of these were before we were lucky enough to access university education in these areas [1960's]. I was forceably taken from school at 16 by extremist fundamentalist parents, and sent to work. For the next 10 years I spent every waking hour that i wasn't working, studying to get somewhere in life.

Traditionally as with UK we studied for an sat the professional bodies examinations then went on to get Government licenses to practice [public accounting, tax consulting, coproate auditing] - we haven't yet adopted the US model of handing over control to professional bodies. In Accounting and Banking & Finance I am a Fellow, the others, the next membership level below - and these are all graded, not bought memberships, as in US.

My Australian post graduate qualifications are:

4 year post graduate Bachelor of Education
2 year Master of Education
2.5 year Master of Accountancy

Added to that I have:

EdD from Summit studied under Mel Suhd whom John Bear holds on high regard, and this included a 650 hour supervised government approved clinical research program - [remedial education-psych assessment].

PhD from American Coastline which has in part been published.

Both of these degrees are legal and valid and I have letters from the Board of Regents to this effect. As far as recognition here is concerned, those who have read my work have no problem. I can use the degree as it is valid. If I applied to NOOSR for equivelancy, I would meet the same fate as any PhD/EdD applicant form a >250 RA school - I would be knocked back. I have used them and may again in the future when it suits me. Several here have clearly expressed that they have no problem with them, including Tom Head recently publicly here. In any eveny i really don't give a @#$^ and have never passed them off other than what they are.

Regarding MIGS - I commenced work in the late 1990's on a project to locate a country and set up an arrangement for accredited multilingual post graduate degrees deliverable globally. I was paid for my services in cash [yes i paid tax on that!] and was offered a scholarship which I initailly took up. Iam currently doind a similar program for a global corporation in another country, but i am not going to be foolish enough to make any comments on any forum here at any stage. When that program is 'discovered' I will simply sit back and smile...!

Now of you wish to continue to attempt to discredit me Lawrie, keep making an example of yourself. In comparison to many who would seek to discredit me Lawrie, i have probably forgotten more than they will ever learn. In terms of academia and education, this group is insignificant, but is an excellent forum for those who cannot or choose not to access accepted forums for whatever reason. Most people who really matter don't even know that we exist.

My concerns are genuine, well founded, fairly broadly accepted [not that I worry about that] and have again been expressed today under the sister thread to this one.

So Lawrie, and the temporarily departed Steve Levicoff My Degree is RA and Yours is NOT would say - BITE ME.