My opinion on the non-ABA law school issue

Recently, I've seen numerous threads and posts about non-ABA law schools (both DL and non-DL) and foreign law degrees via DL. I feel like igniting some sparks today so I will give my opinion on this topic.

If you are a "typical 21 year old college student" or "young recent college graduate" thinking about law school: Do not go to a non-ABA school or get a foreign law degree if you want to practice in the U.S. I say this NOT because I think your education will be inferior, but because it is quite easy to get into AT LEAST one ABA-accredited law school in the U.S. Even if your grades and LSAT scores are not up to par, you can likely still get into at least a single ABA law school. I personally know people who had 2.0-2.2 GPAs and lousy LSATs who were accepted into law school. Why bother with a non-ABA school and fight all of the licensure problems when you can just go to a bottom of the "bottom tier" school and avoid these problems? Getting into an ABA law school is not all that difficult. Look at a website or a book that lists and discusses all the law schools in the U.S. I'm sure it won't be too hard to figure out that you can probably be accepted into one of these "last place" schools.

Furthermore, my personal opinion is that any college graduate can become a lawyer if he or she chooses. It is only a slight exageration to say, if you can read, write and speak English, you can be a lawyer. Now, the ABA or the blue blood lawyers out there (who like to think of law as an esteemed and learned profession) may be aghast at such a statement, it is basically true. Now, make no mistake, I did not say that any college graduate could be a SUCCESSFUL lawyer. Being a "good" lawyer (and working at a top law firm, making a lot of money being respected by your peers, etc.) takes a little (probably a lot) extra. But, to simply graduate from an ABA law school and pass the bar in a jurisdiction (one may even have to get licensed in an "easy" state) is not difficult. I hate to say this, but some of the stupidest people I know are lawyers.

Thus, if you are a typical college student or recent graduate, don't listen to any of these "go to Western Southeast International Law College and you can practice law in such and such state" comments.

For those of you who are non-typical "adult" students and already engaged in a good career, have a family, etc.: if you are considering law school and do not want to (or cannot) move, by all means go to a non-ABA school in your neighborhood or get a JD via DL. If the state you live in will allow you to take the bar, I see no problem with it. For example, I saw an article about a dentist in CA who was enrolled at a DL law school because this was the only way he could get a law degree. Fine! Good for him; if he puts the time in, he'll graduate, take the CA bar and call himself a dentist-lawyer.

JB

BA, Economics 1986 [Top 5 National Liberal Arts College]
JD 1989 [University of (one of our 50 states)]

 

JAMES IS RIGHT ON!

It does not matter how you get there just as long as you get there.

An accredited Juris Doctor is an accredited Juris Doctor regardless of who issues it.

Let me use my UNISA friend as an example. He completed an LL.B degree through UNISA (South Africa) then completed some law courses at University of Western Ontario and wrote the bar exam for Ontario.

I have a cousin who went to Osgoode Hall at the University of Toronto (One of the most, if not the most, prestigious law schools in Canada) and gained his LL.B from them and passed the bar.

Both men work as Crown (equivalent of district) Attorneys in Ontario and make the same money as lawyers.

Frank

 

I also agree with Barrington's analysis, so long as you read it CAREFULLY.
If you want to work in a fairly non-competitive arena such as a rural public defender office, the law LICENSE, not the law DEGREE, is the most important thing.
If you want to hang out a shingle anywhere, the LICENSE is what matters.
BUT if you want a good federal job or to work for a big-city commercial firm, the DEGREE becomes important.
And finally, if you want to be a law school prof, the degree is paramount. The license matters comparatively little.

Now, what everybody seems to forget is the COST.
A resident law degree is a big investment. There are two primary costs:
1) tuition, books and fees; and
2) lost income while seeking the degree.

Private school tuition will total around $75,000 for three or four years. State school tuition seems to average about $12,000 for three years.

Private schools survive in part by being more flexible, offering evening programs. The student can thereby minimize his lost income. Three years of lost income could be as little (or as much) as $100,000. A private evening program that allows the student to continue to work full-time might end up being cheaper overall than a public, full-time program, even after paying all that tuition.

Here is where D/L programs become almost irresistable. Northwestern Cal U gets $2,000 per year for a total tuition of $8,000 AND lost income is ZERO. Furthermore, some of their grads DO pass the Bar every year.

Bottom line:

If I were an employed, middle class, middle-aged Californian with a hankering to be a lawyer, I'd sign up with Northwestern Cal. Shoot, at this price, I'd have nothing to lose!

Nosborne JD

 

Put an "X" Factor in there....

Lets say you settle for, forgive me, decide on attending a DL Law School. All of a sudden: YOU FIND YOURSELF UN-EMPLOYED WITH LITTLE OR NO MONEY SAVED!!

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to get a job almost immediately because you have an ABA approved degree? Immediately is not a guarantee but you have more opportunities in my opinion. Just look at: www.usajobs.opm.gov

http://www.usajobs.opm.gov/wfjic/jobs/IB8064.HTM

The Government has dozens of Lawyer opportunities available all the time and I know that if I were hiring that I would probably score the ABA-Grad a little higher than a DL Lawyer...even though my heart belongs to DL.

Mike

AA, Burlington College, NJ
BA, TESC
MS, SMSU (2003?)

 

Well, maybe so, I do usually argue that the law is no place for dabblers and that the serious student needs an ABA degree.
Nosborne
(Whose JD was full time, resident, and most definitely ABA accredited)

 

ABA

I agree with nosborne's posts. Costs need to be factored into the decision. It was not part of my "analysis" above.

To have the best chance of getting the "choice" jobs in law, you need to get good grades at a good law school. Obviously, if you have a 3.9 GPA from Stanford, your shot at getting the Assistant U.S. Attorney position or the litigation associate position at Morrison & Forster is far better than a 3.0 student from Whittier College of Law. However, if you get good grades (say 3.5 and higher) from any ABA school and you were on the law review, you have a decent shot at a good job. (Clearly, what a "good position" is is subjective, but generally we are talking about either the high paying private sector positons or federal jobs, including clerkships with federal judges).

Of course, as the years go by, where you went to school and your GPA matter less and less. It basically comes down to your ability and talent (which does not necessarily mean brains). I knew a guy in law school who barely graduated with a 2.0 GPA. Obviously, he didn't get the great jobs all of the third year students were clamoring for. But, he was a little older and wiser than average student, had a indescrible talent to make things happen, and just the right amount of "sleaziness" needed to succeed in law; now (13 years after graduation) he probably makes more money in his personal injury practice than anyone who graduated in our class.

I also know of an individual who had a Ph.D. (from an Ivy League school) and graduated from Harvard at the top of his class and was an editor of the law review. He clerked for a justice on the U.S. Supreme Court (a "clerk" doesn't sound prestigious but, believe me, a clerkship like this is one of the hardest and most sought after jobs by law students and recent graduates). Its probably been over 20 years since he graduated and he probably makes less than $50,000 a year.

If you are young and not settled (either by marriage or a good job), go to the best law school you and get into and afford. Go to ABA over non-ABA. If you an "adult" student who cannot move, go to whatever school is in the area or DL or whatever. In the end, like in most things in life, your law career will come down to your abilities and talent.

Good luck to all.

JB

 

NOSOBORNE...Good Take on

that is a pretty good take on the whole issue. I have accomplished a whole lot in my life, and I make more than most lawyers within my organization....some of whom are Harvard & Princeton Grads. What drives me to pursue an ABA Law School at this juncture in my life:

1. The constant pressures out there to know that tomorrow I will have the ability to compete for a great job in the case that I lose my current job today. (Sep 11 was a prime example...my neighbor was with an airline for 13 years and ended up un-employed. He is currently taking aerial photo's for a tour company making 30% of what he made at the airline).

2. A personal Goal that I have maintained for over 20 years was to earn a law degree and practice at least part-time.

3. I believe that I possess the drive and determination to be a great lawyer! In fact, I completed most of my college while an infantryman in the Army or while working more than 80 hours a week...I am finally at the point where I can focus a lot of energy on being a good student.

If not for the above factors...I would probably consider a DL School (OakBrook is my first choice and Concord would be a close second due to the DETC affilitation) or just continue on with my work towards a MS at SMSU (5-Classes away).


Mike

AA, BCC
BA, TESC
MS, SMSU (2003?)