American Christian College & Seminary

ACCS now has a 66 credit hour D.Min. for those with just a Masters degree (as opposed to the M.Div).

They also have the standard D.Min and a 60 credit hour D.Min. in Christian Counseling.

Personally, I am hoping that they will change the nomenclature of the 60 credit hour D.Min. Possibly with TRACS opening up to other doctoral titles (if OGS gets candidacy) this may happen.

North

 

North: Did they used to be American Bible College in OK?

 

North

I am trying to see how MA +66 units =MDiv +33. The latter sum is about 123. The former is about 96.

At Western CB Seminary as I recall, one had to have finished the MDiv 96hrs (and 3 years pasroral experience) then do another 33 for the DMin.

Were my calculations correct, then does this seem "fair" to you?

 

I am not North, but, yes they were, at one time The American Bible College and Seminary. If you do a search on the ABCS you will be directed to ACCS. This is the second name change. When they began as an unaccredited school they had a really unusual name......can't remember what it was.

 

University of Biblical Studies and Seminary.

Dr. Floyd Shealy, current President of ACCS, was appointed by the board of directors to head UBSS as President in 1997. His association with the school spanned well over 20 years.

His resume looks like this: served as executive director of Oklahoma Volunteers in Corrections, dean of college/dean of students at Oklahoma City Southwestern College, associate dean of students at Oral Roberts University and served as an adjunct professor for various colleges in the Oklahoma City area.

 

Here is my theory. What I think is happening is that ACCS and a number of other schools want to offer other doctoral programs. As of yet TRACS has not approved anything other than the D.Min (excluding Liberty which also has RA). So, my guess is that they want to offer someone the chance to earn a doctorate in biblical studies (which is what their D.Min.'s emphasis is) even though they do not have the M.Div. So, they end up doing 66 credit hours after their Masters which is slightly more than other doctorates (Ed.D., D.B.A, etc).

As I say I hope they will apply to change the names of the 60 credit hour doctorates to something spearate from the D.Min.

As to fair, I guess it is all relative. I was not particularly happy a few years ago when I contacted the University of Sarasota about their Ph.D program in Counsleing and found that even though I had a 48 credit hour Masters degree I was in the same category/standing as someone with a lowly 36 credit hour Masters degree. So, you can't necessarily do a numbers count of credit hours. Touro's Ph.D. in Health Sciences is around 40 credit hours (IIRC). So, that means someone could have a total of 76 graduate credit hours by the time they finish where I would have 108 graduate credit hours. But you can't figure value/quality by just using numbers or fairness.

North

 

My understanding is that TRACS suggested the name change from ABCS to ACCS due to the fact that they have begun offering an undergraduate business degree hence "Bible College" was no longer appropriate and it was change to "Christian College".

North

 

North

Seems as if two schools are equal in terms of delivery of their education and both offer D Mins yet the program of one is more substantive than the other in requirements to finish that the effect would be a variance in quality.
But I know that you are more knowledgeable than I on these matters.

 

I have always thought the M.Div is over the top; a 48 semester unit masters is one thing, but a 96 semester unit masters is very nearly absurd. The 125 unit MTh is officialy absurd. After 125 semester units, give the person a doctorate for Pete's sake. Even considering that many M.Div programs today count up to 24 units for ministry practicum, it is still too much. As it stands now, the D.Min. degree should be entirely unstructured or dissertation/project only. Thirty additional units beyond a MTh is ostentatious. I think the ACCS plan is fine, and perfectly fair. Remember you could do both the MTh and Th.D in South Africa by research only.

I kind of resented some of the course work in my Ph.D. program; all we did was to do the MA over again--twice. I ended up with 190 qtr units beyond my 45 qtr unit MA.

Craig

 

It really is tough to answer. Just as there is variation within the Ph.D arena (eg Touro's 40 credit hour Health S. to 60 + credit hour programs at other Universities). Both are RA & so how do you judge (by sheer credit hours??). Within the D.Min. their is wide variation there are schools which allow you to enter without the M.Div. and do some extra coursework and yet I don't know that this adds up to the sheer number of credits of someone with an M.Div. + the smaller D.Min due to the number of credit hours in a normal M.Div. program. On top of that the coursework varies considerably. I have seen D.Min. programs which are vary definitely professionally oriented in terms of coursework. In other words the coursework is vary practical & requires a project in each course. Then I have seen D.Min.'s which are very academic in nature and might as well be Ph.D. programs. Yet graduates of both types of situations end up with the D.Min. for better or for worse. The same can be said of Ed.D. programs or Doctor of management programs. Some are very professional/practical in orientation and others are very defintely academic so that they might as well be Ph.D. programs.

I am enrolled in the 60 credit hour D.Min in Counseling. I hope they will change the name of the program because I prefer not to do 60 credit hours and end up with a D.Min. (I am prepared that such may be the case). I have suggested to them Doctor of Pastoral Counseling (DPC) as BJU has a Doctor of Pastoral Theology. I DO NOT want Doctor of Christian Counseling as too many mills use that designation.

North

 

I agree with you Craig. Lawyers get J.D.'s and yet you have pastors with M.Div.'s of 90 + credit hours (with Greek & Hebrew language requirements). My feelings was that the amount of learning involved meant that by the time you had a pastor with a D.Min. they defintely earned the title "Dr.". I don't think your average member of the public has any idea how much education a mainline pastor has or how intense the courswork is.

North

 

I agree with the idea of the MDIV being a little over the top, however my understanding is that the MDIV is mainly for people that have just a secular BA. So i can sort of see the reason for it's length. My situation was a little different. I have a THB =156 credit hours. This degree was from a Bible college so i had preaching greek and hebrew. I felt that a MDIV was not in my best interest so i went to a MAMIN. However when you do not have a MDIV the DMIN is hard to get into. I appreciate schools like ACCS in putting together alternate programs. Flexibility is great. They were very helpful in allowing me to enter the DMIN with only a need to pick up some MDIV credits.

 

the ThM is absurd

Craig:

I agree with you. In fact if you all will allow me, I'll start calling myself "dr" right away; then after UNIZUL "dr., DR" Bill.

 

Bill i thing before you call yourself DR you should at least get some good paper maybe even with a cerificate border and print some type of document or degree. This would give just a little more credibility.

good luck
dr

 

Bill--if you have a M.Th. of 125+ sem. hrs. including original langs., you are a doctor by any human(e) standard; but like the Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz, you do need a diploma. So I hereby grant to.......

North: The average church member has no idea on earth how educated their pastor probably is--especially since so many assume a kind of down home quality in their preaching. The average non-churched person thinks theology is something like metaphysics--you get the degree from Universal Life Church. I mean, how could you study ONE BOOK for 15 years???

Be in His Grace

Craig

 

Two of the hardest undergraduate elective courses I took were theology courses. I am reminded of what Ann Landers once said....Clergy are the most underpaid professionals in America. I remember a Chaplain (AOG) who prior to coming into the army was paid partially in corn meal (hope I spelled that correctly). He of course had an M.Div. There was an article about Lutheran clergy in the Lutheran witness and some of the trials they faced. This included low pay, long hours and bizarre parishioners. One pastor with whom the congregation was feuding called the pastor's daughter who was sent away to her grandparents and began harassing her on the phone. Another case was an elder who followed the pastor out to the parking lot and continued to yell at him at which point the pastor had a heart attack. The elders response was that the pastor was overweight anyway. Other stories include congregation members who tape pastors sermons and send them to headquarters with accusations of doctrinal impurity. A pastor relates being shot at. Remember the LCMS is very conservative and consists of well educated people. Sad, sad treatment of its clergy.

North

 

Craig:

Thanks for that diploma. Look for the addition below

DTh, Craig's Seminary

soon to appear. Also,


Why study one Book for i5 years? Here's a similar question: Why , at my age of 61, research and write on one small theological issue when before too long I will either (if I'm right as to my future state) understand it all oh so much better OR if I/m wrong it won't matter one bit? Answer: Love it!

 

American Christian College and Seminary

Hello All! I am curious about this institution. I spoke Mr. Mike Holt at ACCS just a while ago. I was inquiring concerning the M.A. in Christian Counseling and the D.Min. Is there anyone on here who has finished their M.A. throught this institution? Anyone presently enrolled? I would really like to know how versatile a degree is from there? I am in the ministry so this would be my primary field. I also have my Bachelors from an RA university. Thanks!



BMAN

 

Re: American Christian College and Seminary

I am currently enrolled in the doctoral program and BLD has graduated with a doctorate from ACCS. Is ACCS an accredited institution.....Yes. Is TRACS a recognized accrediting agency........Yes.

How versatile depends on a couple of issues. First, is it acceptable to your denomination in terms of the institution and the accrediting agency. The second issue is what you intend to do with it. If you want to get the M.A. in Christian Counseling to become a licensed therapist for instance then that will not work. The program is not designed for that. In that case I would recommend Liberty University's (SACS & TRACS accredited) M.A. in Counseling which is designed to meet licensure requirements in many states. If you just want the degree to understand more about Christian Counseling then it is helpful for that. Even then Liberty has a Master of Arts in Religion with a concentration in Counseling (not licensure track) that is around 130 per credit hour but does require a couple of short residencies. Southern Christian University also has a licensure track M.A. in Counseling.
If you want to go on to an RA Ph.D. program with the TRACS accredited M.A. then that is not a sure thing. Liberty considers both RA & Nationally accredited degrees as I understand Capella does other apparently do not.

At any rate, I am enjoying the program and pursuing the docotrate on top of other degrees. It is accredited and will meet my needs.

What your future plans are greatly determines versatility. Hope that helps!

North

 

North,

Thanks for the information. I do not think the denomination the I am in has many restrictions concerning this. Of course I want a degree that would be versatile but this is mainly for my personal enrichment. However, recognized RA or NA is a must. I do not want something that is worthless, so accreditation is a must. Do you find the ACCS staff helpful? What are the pros and cons of this institution?


BMAN