Asteism

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by John Bear, Mar 26, 2002.

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  1. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    Rich Douglas, in a now-stopped thread, points out that attacks can be tedious. Well, yes, but when they are directed at you, they can be really hurtful as well.

    I do find myself wondering what these people did before Email gave them the opportunity to attack people instantly and anonymously.

    I mean, "C," if I walked into your periodicals room* and introduced myself, would you really say those unkind (and untrue) things to me in person, that you have posted here in front of the entire world?

    Finally, I guess I have mixed emotions about the moderators here stopping a thread before we who are attacked have a chance to respond. My thought: either take it down entirely or permit the attackees to reply.

    John Bear
    _________________
    * Well, perhaps not as anonymous
    as some people think...
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Understood, John, but isn't it a given? The Mill-Mongers despise with a fanatical zeal the truth regarding legitimate institutions of higher learning. However, Truth will always gain the upper hand.

    Be blessed!!!!!!
     
  3. Susan2

    Susan2 New Member

    Pay no attention to the man (?) behind the curtain

    Hi John,

    I'm not sure which thread you're discussing, but I know I always make a special point of reading your posts (as well as those from a few other members,) because you always have something interesting and informative to say. If there are a few people out there who insist on insulting you, I just want you to remember that I'm sure the majority of us admire you very much.

    PS. Your books were my primary inspiration for going back to school to complete my bachelor's degree in the early '90's, and I chose my school (TESC) based on its inclusion in "Earning College Degrees Nontraditionally." (I think that was the title!) You have helped so many people through your books, website, and posts on this forum, that I'm sure when someone insults you in these discussions, many of us are offended as well.

    Regards,
    Susan
     
  4. Anthony Pina

    Anthony Pina Active Member

    Dr. Bear,

    Might I be allowed to offer a hearty "amen" to the previous displays of admiration for you and your work. Bear's Guide (and now Bears' Guides) have been a staple of my personal and professional library for over a decade. As an educational technologist, I maintain numerous reference works in the field of distance learning, but none have proven as useful (or downright fun) as Bears' Guide.

    Whine and attack as they may, the diploma mill crowd will not succeed in their attempts to discredit you. Those of us in the Ed Tech/DL field know that you are an invaluable authority.

    Tony Pina
    BA, MEd BYU
    EdD (ABD) La Sierra U.
     
  5. Ken

    Ken member

    I think it is often an issue of self-worth.

    We are consiously trying to position ourselves as better than others (i.e. more better, more education, better schools).

    He is better because his degree is RA, He is better because he went to x school, etc.

    Of course, schools and programs are not equal... some schools and programs are more rigorous than others based on the generally academic standards that are hundreds of years old.

    However, to have an intelligent conversation of these issues requires the ability to distance your abilities, education and, in some cases, citizenship from the topic at hand.

    This can be difficult. If I have a unaccredited degree and you state that it is inferior, or if I have a degree from a "less-than-wonderful" school and you state that it is less-than-wonderful... it is difficult not to see it as a personal assult... which precipitates an attack... and the spiral begins.
     
  6. JCL

    JCL New Member

    Dr. Bear, as someone who recently defended you on AED before discovering this message board, I wouldn't worry about it. In the field of canon law, which is the area of my real academic credentials, I've both researched and published numerous pieces concerning a certain movement with cultish tendencies that broke off from the Catholic Church. Some of their adherents have been most vocal and angry in attacking my work, although they seldom address the substance of my arguments. This use to bother me, until, being a good Canuck, I was watching hockey one night and heard Don Cherrie say: "I never engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."

    JCL
     
  7. John Bear

    John Bear Senior Member

    I take it as a given that diploma mill operators will always be on the offensive.

    My concern is with those people with whom I disagree on a certain matter, who reply in the most uncivil way -- a way that I suspect they simply would not do in person, or even would not have done back in the days of typewriters or pens and envelopes.

    Over the years, I see a very mixed sort of response in comparable situations. For instance, my low opinion of the way Century University handles its accreditation is well established. I have gotten some real hate mail from Century alumni, with all the usual charges of kickbacks, private agendas, my own secret ownership of diploma mills, etc. And there has been an unfailingly polite and civil dialogue with Century alumnus Neil Hynd.

    Many examples in my life. Paul Saltmann, owner of Kennedy-Western, is one of the few people who actually shouted and screamed at me on the phone. And for 25 years, I've had an unfailingly polite occasional dialog with Philip Forte, owner of the comparably non-wonderful Pacific Western.

    And, as I've mentioned here before, one of the nastiest letters I ever got was related to a time when I said that a certain Lutheran school was affiliated with the Wisconsin Synod, and it was really the Missouri Synod (or perhaps vice versa), and one of those syndics suggested that the other synod was worse than being affiliated with Satan himself, and he hoped, in the unkindest terms, that I would shortly have the opportunity to meet that gent myself.
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I'm surprised you didn't know the difference between the Missouri/Wisconsin Synod, John. Its that North/South thing again!!! :D
     
  9. Mike Albrecht

    Mike Albrecht New Member

    It is actually much more fundamental :rolleyes: then that.
     
  10. Peter French

    Peter French member

    Dear John,

    Many of us have done many things in our long and varied lives, with the greatest of intentions and the best of motives, but not everyone sees things as simply as this.

    At some stage we have cause to reflect and consider, and we can either accept that some/much of what we have done could have been done better, or not done at all, and in some of these cases it is not reversible, or we can be upset at the way that people view and remember us.

    You have chosen a high profile life and profession for whatever reason. Presumably it has been financially beneficial and also given you prominence and exposure, and espoused you to an almost cult following at times. However nothing comes without its cost, and sometimes we are not prepared for this cost, nor are we always prepared to pay the accompanying price.

    I respect you and admire you for the success that you have achieved in your endeavours. This doesn't mean that I agree with you in everything, although it does appear with some/several/many you can not, never have, and never will do anything wrong. As you revel in this, your positon of risk increases.

    Lets us briefly analyse this:

    1. You either saw the ''deficiencies" of the traditional education system in the 60/70/80 period, or the "opportunities" for non accredited education. This led to your support of non-RA institutions and direct involvement with Fairfax, Greenwich and so on.

    2. The result of this currently is:
    * Dan Peters et al attacking you without mercy over your published support of CPU and others.
    * Disillusioned previous followers of you who now have degrees that you recommended [and I and apparently many others still have your Fairfax and Greenwich sales letters] but are ridiculed here on degreeinfo as they were on a.e.d.

    3. You repeatedly currently almost excuse Fairfax and Greenwich in their present operations despite the legality of their positions being exposed, and also highly critical comments as to their degree content worthiness. This must raise questions with readers here, and cause confusion on several fronts.

    4. You openly request information about degree holders from what most would regard as degree mills, and this simply supports adverse criticism of you and raises doubts as to your impartiality.

    5. For some time you were very publicly and purposefully on the side of the prosecutors of degree mills. You and many know my opinion of that area of action, but you are attacking full on and threatening the viability of highly profitable operations and the finanical wellbeing of their operators. As someone else here is currently experiencing, these people do not have the highest degree of ethical or honest business principles, and they do fiercely protect their right to defend thier livelihoods.

    6. When someone who has followed your earlier advice, is attacked on degreeinfo, you are conspicuous by your absence of comment or explanation or support, and will even in some cases come if 'for the kill' in the end.

    John, simply, not everyone likes you, what you do or how you do it. You have a heady band of cult-like followers, but that is not everybody.

    Unfortunately my friend, that is life, and you have to live with it.

    And also, not everyone likes me and possibly now even less. Again that is life and i have to live with it - also live with this message being deleted, and also live with losing the right to contribute to this forum.

    Again, that is life, and we mits live with it.
     

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