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  1. #1
    faero13 is offline Registered User
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    Mark Cuban - The Coming Meltdown in College Education

    Very interesting comments coming from a self-made billionaire and Dallas Mavericks owner. A good plug for distance education .

    ["Prices for traditional higher education will skyrocket so high over the next several years that potential students will start to make their way to non accredited institutions.

    While colleges and universities are building new buildings for the english , social sciences and business schools, new high end, un-accredited , BRANDED schools are popping up that will offer better educations for far, far less and create better job opportunities.

    As an employer I want the best prepared and qualified employees. I could care less if the source of their education was accredited by a bunch of old men and women who think they know what is best for the world. I want people who can do the job. I want the best and brightest. Not a piece of paper.

    The competition from new forms of education is starting to appear. Particularly in the tech world. Online and physical classrooms are popping up everywhere. They respond to needs in the market. THey work with local businesses to tailor the education to corporate needs. In essence assuring those who excel that they will get a job. All for far far less money than traditional schools."]

    Full blog article: The Coming Meltdown in College Education & Why The Economy Won’t Get Better Any Time Soon « blog maverick
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    faero13
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  2. #2
    DxD=D^2 is offline Registered User
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    I have to say, that is why I chose Liberty . They are an online not-for-profit university which has one of the lowest tuition rates. I know that APUS (American Public University Systems) is cheaper, but I wanted a Christian education , and Liberty really made it possible for me!

    However, I disagree with this comment below:

    ".... new high end, un-accredited , BRANDED schools are popping up that will offer better educations for far, far less and create better job opportunities."

    This is blanket statement at best that just favors non-accredited schools, mostly because they CAN BE cheaper. If that were the case, let me make a school that is not accredited and call it, The Fundraising University; Mission Statement: Funding the "David Foundation" by serving the uneducated, everywhere. Motto: "Everyone is Excepted".

    These degree-mill schools are not worth the price cut for certain positions. What if one wanted to pursue a position as a K-12 teacher , psychologist , lawyer, doctor, etc, what would these degree-mill colleges offer then? Positions that need licensed personal will never accept degree-mills.

    However, for trade purposes, they might work; But still, they are a cheap substitute of an accredited institution.
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    In his heart, a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps. — Proverbs 16:9

  3. #3
    LearningAddict is offline Registered User
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    Well, unaccredited doesn't automatically mean degree mill or lower quality, it's just that there are no outside checks to the system with an unaccredited institution which leaves things up to more unknowns.

    Anyway, I see Cuban's point to a certain extent, and I do believe that while accreditation is a good thing it's not without flaws. But, I don't think unaccredited schools are the total answer. Personally, I'm not sure there is an answer that will likely happen. I feel like the bubble is soon to burst, and the more educated students become of what's happening the less enrollments there are going to be. Like I said in another post, there are hordes of qualified people with degrees (and many with experience) who can't land a job. Though many of us here continue to educate ourselves for personal enrichment, we know that's not the main motivation of most people pursuing higher education ; most people are going for the chance at a better job. But when those same people see examples of countless others getting degrees--even advanced ones--and those countless others are yet unemployed and unemployed for long periods of time despite tireless efforts to change that fortune, it becomes a damaging testimonial for the whole system.

    There seems to be a bit of a tug o' war going on. One side is pulling and screaming that more education is the answer, while the other side is pulling and screaming that more jobs are the answer. Both can help, but it just seems like schools are turning out people with education that's above the level of the available jobs (an even bigger problem for graduates who already have lots of experience), and there are few jobs matching the grads experience and education forcing them to apply for lower-level jobs that they ultimately get turned down for as a result of being overqualified. Employers appear to be adjusting slighty by requiring higher education for jobs that normally only require a high school diploma, but all that's doing is taking away opportunities that the less institutionally educated would've normally gotten, and that creates a whole new problem and we're beginning to see that play out now.

    This is a mess.

  4. #4
    Johann is offline Registered User
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    Which schools is Mark Cuban talking about?

    ".... new high end, un-accredited , BRANDED schools are popping up that will offer better educations for far, far less and create better job opportunities."

    I wish Mr. Cuban would name a couple of these schools he's describing. High-end and unaccredited = possible, but strange bedfellows. I note Mr. Cuban himself chose a top-10 business school for his own degree -- although he is (perhaps justifiably) proud that it was the least expensive of them. (Indiana University, Bloomington - Kelley School of Business)

    That aside, I agree with him that there's likely an apocalypse coming for traditional schools, particularly for-profits. The price of higher ed. in the US has gone so far beyond inflation (and incomes) that it's created a potentially fatal student debt situation. Huge tuition increases have been fueled by a willy-nilly, "ninja-loan" strategy of loan availability. Nobody is looking at the potential for payback - credit rating, income, (realistic) future prospects etc. It's uncomfortably like the US sub-prime real-estate debacle.

    So far, through fortuitously archaic laws and policies, plus a huge dollop of dumb luck, we in Canada have avoided much of the grief felt in the US from bad lending, subsequent foreclosures, insupportable student debt and out-of-whack tuition increases.

    I hope our luck holds - and that's ALL it is, luck - and Americans find solutions to their educational woes. The U.S. "got there" on easy money. The road back will not be easy. If Mr. Cuban has any suggestions to solve these problems -- I'm sure many would like to hear them.

    Johann
    Last edited by Johann; 05-15-2012 at 04:37 PM.

  5. #5
    faero13 is offline Registered User
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    In an update, he added "Let me add some clarification here based on some of the comments. I include the Online For Profit Mills that live off of the government delivering student loans as part of traditional education . Phoenix, Strayer , etc, they are not the new generation of Branded Education I am referring to. They are a big part of creating the bubble. i should have gone into more depth here. I will save it for another post."
    --
    faero13
    MS, BS, AAS (2)

  6. #6
    cookderosa is offline Resident Chef
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    Ten cents says Cuban is getting into the for-profit edu business....shit, I wish he wanted to start a culinary school...
    Jennifer
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  7. #7
    LearningAddict is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by faero13 View Post
    In an update, he added "Let me add some clarification here based on some of the comments. I include the Online For Profit Mills that live off of the government delivering student loans as part of traditional education. Phoenix, Strayer, etc, they are not the new generation of Branded Education I am referring to. They are a big part of creating the bubble. i should have gone into more depth here. I will save it for another post."
    That combination of terms (in bold) is a bit disturbing, because there seems to be a push from a number of circles to not only label all for-profits as "mills" which is an irresponsible and inaccurate way of creating a negative slant, but also tries to create this fairy tale that for-profits are all expensive and evil, and all non-profits are affordable and righteous (a laughable notion). It's a dangerous road to go down which could lead to student's choices being taken away if this campaign continues to gain steam with the Government giving it support. There are organizations in force right now that create propaganda for the sole purpose of taking down for-profit colleges, smh. And while they're doing that, plenty of students are going into massive debt at non-profit schools just the same, but let's just sweep that under the rug.

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  9. #8
    NorCal is offline Registered User
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    This is an interesting topic that piggybacks off a conversation I just had with a friend of mine. He attended the same B&M junior college that I did, earning an AS Radiological Technology and he makes big bucks! He transferred to a California State University to major in economics . After two semesters, the crowded classrooms and hunting for a parking spot for an hour each day ended up being too much for him. He is now transferring to a private university, not an online university, but one of his search criteria was a college with a hefty online course offering.

    This kinda transitions into the authors point where many universities are building new buildings and various infrastructure to support the barrage of new students due to our failing economy. Universities are becoming so impacted, and the tuition rates keep raising, I would never consider going to one of these schools.
    A.A., B.S., Graduate Certificate in Occupational Safety & Health- University of Alabama (Roll Tide)
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  10. #9
    Randell1234 is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorCal View Post
    This is an interesting topic that piggybacks off a conversation I just had with a friend of mine. He attended the same B&M junior college that I did, earning an AS Radiological Technology and he makes big bucks! He transferred to a California State University to major in economics . After two semesters, the crowded classrooms and hunting for a parking spot for an hour each day ended up being too much for him. He is now transferring to a private university, not an online university, but one of his search criteria was a college with a hefty online course offering.

    This kinda transitions into the authors point where many universities are building new buildings and various infrastructure to support the barrage of new students due to our failing economy. Universities are becoming so impacted, and the tuition rates keep raising, I would never consider going to one of these schools.
    My wife went to the University of North Florida and here was the parking pass deal:
    $50 pass lets you park in the crappy zone where you have to take a shuttle to the buildings since it is so far away
    $100 pass gets you within walking distance but still far
    $200 pass lets you park next to faculty in the "gold zone"

    As we were getting ready to fork over $200 the student working there leans over and says, "Buy the $50 pass. No one follows the rules and the people with the $50 pass park in the gold zones anyway. If you have a late class you will still have to park so far out you will have to take the shuttle regardless of what you pay."

    She dropped after a semester and looked at a local private school (Jacksonville University).

  11. #10
    Kizmet is offline Moderator
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    His opinions are similar to those of others we've heard from recently, at least in terms of many degrees being overpriced.

    America's Ten Most Expensive Colleges?And How Much Financial Aid They Provide - Education - GOOD

    It's hard for me to imagine how much money I'd have to have in the bank in order to pay 55K per year for a History degree. I have to admit though that I disagree with him about the idea that unaccreditted degrees are OK. I'd also bet that the head of his Human Resources department agrees with me.
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  12. #11
    NorCal is offline Registered User
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    My buddies private university (undergrad) is very expensive at $30K, but the state university was going to run him $24K with less of a headache and more time spent at home with his family.
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  13. #12
    Maxwell_Smart is offline Registered User
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    I see these 4k and 6K differences posted a lot (and I suppose that's the average difference in cost between for's and non's), and I wonder "do people really see that as a big difference?"

    In this economy especially, 24K is a lot of money for most people and is already too much to spend for them. 6K more spread out over a number of years isn't going to make or break a person in that situation. When I see those numbers, I just see two bills that the average American both equally can no longer afford.
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  14. #13
    peacfulchaos2001 is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxwell_Smart View Post
    I see these 4k and 6K differences posted a lot (and I suppose that's the average difference in cost between for's and non's), and I wonder "do people really see that as a big difference?"

    In this economy especially, 24K is a lot of money for most people and is already too much to spend for them. 6K more spread out over a number of years isn't going to make or break a person in that situation. When I see those numbers, I just see two bills that the average American both equally can no longer afford.
    I guess it's all about the person. 24-30k for me would be a lot. In the bigger scheme of things that's not a large amount in comparison to some of the latest horror stories (assuming that it's 30k total and not a year).

  15. #14
    mcjon77 is offline Registered User
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    Rather than unaccredited "colleges", why not focus on training and certificate programs. Why bother calling these unaccredited "degrees" associates or bachelors degrees? The certificate system has worked rather well in IT. People get certified on a particular technology, and based on that certification the employer has at least some idea of what skills the certificate holder possesses. It certainly isn't perfect, but it is working.

    Even better, the focus on certificates as opposed to schooling gives individuals MANY options on how to obtain that knowledge. Some have obtained the knowledge through on-the-job training. Others have obtained the knowledge by teaching themselves at home. Still others have obtained it through formal schooling. The learner has the option of finding the method that best works for them, based on their previous knowledge, learning style, time, and financial resources.
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  17. #15
    ryoder is offline Registered User
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    I tell people all the time about Thomas Edison and others and they just don't get it. They still think that real degrees are earned at public B&M schools, not online or DL schools. When the average 4 yr degree goes to 100k, they will probably think again.

  18. #16
    Johann is offline Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcjon77 View Post
    Rather than unaccredited "colleges", why not focus on training and certificate programs. Why bother calling these unaccredited "degrees" associates or bachelors degrees?
    I agree - and possibly Mr. Cuban thinks so too... but I can't tell, as he's being so mysterious about naming the schools he favours. He's clear about the ones he DOESN'T like -- Strayer et al., but not about these "high-end unaccredited" new guns. Then again, I guess he can afford to be nebulous and vague if he so desires.

    Maybe he's referring to private career/vocational schools that DO deal more in certs and diplomas than degrees. Many deal in "high end" vendor-based certification, like Microsoft, Oracle, Cisco an' them.

    Heck - If he's talking about career schools, they don't have to lack accreditation. ACCSC accredits hunnerts of 'em, here: About Us | Accrediting Commission of Career Schools and Colleges

    Johann
    Last edited by Johann; 05-16-2012 at 08:25 AM.

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