A doctorate in business... looked at Bradford, USQ, Sturt, and Touro

Good day to you all..

The incessant 'pissing contest' considering the veracity of Touro vs UK, US, Aussie, et al may be energizing for the 'pissers'... but it does get tiring for the rest of us. But here I go... not quite into the fray, I trust ... but with some comments.

I am not a newbie to this forum, nor to distance education, but I will be new to the Touro UI PhD in Business, this coming June.

I am joining this Touro band of virtual brothers after checking out three other universities, and encountering either a schedule conflict or difficulty in getting my dissertation topic approved.

1) Bradford in the UK.
The DBA appeals, but having to make four trips in the first twelve months was not feasible. I had enough vacation time from my full-time manager's job, but my night school teaching schedule is definitely less flexible.

2) U of Southern Queensland.
They require a formal application, including a preliminary dissertation topic. From application to rejection took four months. To be fair, they asked me to rework the proposal, so it wasn't a total turn-down. But I didn't really want to re-work it any further. It seems that it is difficult to find supervisors in the Aussie schools, so they perhaps made the proper decision.

3) Charles Sturt.
I then did the preliminary application work - this requires an e-mail sketching out your topic. BUT... 'they' had not updated the contact list that they had sent me - my original topic query sat unread for several months (lost at their end, actually). By the time this was straigtened out, the new co-ordinator sent me a three sentence e-mail saying that 'my interesting topic' had no suitable supervisor. I was told, very directly, that there was 'no point in sending in a complete application'. (OUCH!)

4) About this time, I again took a cursory look at the usual suspects: Capella, NSU. But Touro started seeping into my consciousness, because of this forum. I liked what I saw.

What a complete sea change from the Aussie experience. The positives regarding Touro:
- acceptance letter within a couple of days.

- continuous intake... no waiting past a few weeks

- no residency... the tuition is high, but it is spent on the courses, and not on hotels. So.. it may not end up costing anymore than the previous contenders.

- on-line delivery... Canada has lots of distance learning models... we're a w-i-d-e country. In my view, the mode of delivery is not as important as the veracity of the accreditation.

- the US dissertation model - I can work on developing my topic as I take classes, rather than having to fit the topic to the supervisor, in advance. I like this model.. it's similar to what I experienced during my MBA dissertation.

- RA... YES.. the accreditation issue is important to me. (Being Canadian, the UK and Aussie degrees would not present dilemmas for prospective employers.) So, any US degree has to have the formal US accreditation.

- potential accelerated delivery... my progress rests on me, as the option to 'fast-track' is there. Since I can schedule time off to give me a full business day per week of studying and writing, besides the nights and weekends, fast progress is not out of the question.

- applicability to work-place... my job provides myriad opportunities for course-work and dissertation topics. This Institute is a virtual petri dish of projects awaiting research and examination.

Things I'm not so crazy about:
- Touro UI's web-site is poor... That in itself initially put me off. If it wasn't for the positive comments on this forum, I wouldn't have looked further into Touro . While flashy web-sites do not denote legitimacy, web-sites are a primary marketing tool and Touro could do a better job in this area.

- the cost... The Aussie degrees, in Canadian dollars, are almost on par. The Touro degree, in Canadian dollars, comes in at about 60% more, dollar for dollar, because of exchange rates. A $2000.00 Touro course is about $3200.00 Cdn dollars! Thank goodness I can get tuition relief from my employer.

_____________

So.. the point of this particular epistle:
As mentioned many times on this forum, personal choice + end use are what count - the fit of the degree, the mode of delivery, and one's purpose for taking the degree.

In my case:
I am fifty years old. I don't delude myself that I can aspire to a tenure-track position in a university... the time is past for that.

BUT... I am a manager at a post-secondary institution - I have a challenging job and an education-supportive environment. I now also0 teach a night school business class, so there are lots of chances to be 'adjunct' pre- and post-retirement from my 'day job'.
- Learning to do more sophisticated research, at the doctoral level, can only help my free-lance writing, and my teaching.
- If I want to expand my teaching to the university level, the PhD will open the doors. And we all know that as part-time instructors, we're in demand. (Having a good pension plan gives me additional options of choice... I'm not relying on adjunct work to support me when I'm sixty, but to augment my interests.)

I would like to close by saying that taking a second-tier PhD (or, perhaps third-tier, in some posters' views) can be a first-class experience! (And dare I say... 'just what the DOCTOR ordered!) I look forward to joining the virtual fraternity at Touro.

With thanks

Michael in Vancouver Canada

1) B. Arts / Dalhousie University, Halifax, Canada. (bricks and mortar)
2) MBA / Athabasca University, Alberta, Canada (on-line with minimal residency)
3) Instructors' Diploma, Province of British Columbia (bricks and mortar)

- (in progress) Master of Arts (Humanities), Cal State Dominguez Hills (some on-line, but basically correspondence model)
- (pending) PhD Business, Touro U International (on-line)

 

I appreciate your comments!

To help reduce your expenses, you may want to look into their graduate assistant program. I am a graduate assistant for one of the UG classes (ITM 301) responsible for 42 students. For this extra work I receive a $1500 tuition discount per term.

Just something to think about - especially with your background.

Gary

 

Hello Michael,

Thanks for your post. I have no knowledge of the different programs you mentioned, beyond what I've read on DegreeInfo, but I just learned a little more from your research efforts.

You will note that the "chief pisser(s)" has(ve) an axe to grind with the U.S. higher education system in general and with distance education specifically. Perhaps the American system couldn't accomodate his/their multiple personalities.

Thanks for adding a different Canadian perspective to the topic.

Regards,


Tony

 

With all my respect my fellow Canadian, but a school that offers you admission within few days cannot be serious. They are obviously more interested in your money than the quality of research that you are intending to do. How can I accept you to do a PhD if I don't know if I have a qualified supervisor? I guess money talks in this kind of schools.

 

RFValve,

You hit the proverbial nail on the head.

Accepted within a couple of days... FOR A PhD!!!


I am not exactly sure what the testimonial is here:

I looked to the UK but I couldn't accommodate the residency.
I looked to Australia but they rejected me... twice (for whatever reason).
But thank the Lord I found an expensive virtual university in the US that was willing to take me!

 

How will you react when you are asked to rewrite portions of your dissertation at your new school? Quit and look elsewhere for another program?

Christian

 

Re: Re: A doctorate in business... looked at Bradford, USQ, Sturt, and Touro

A responsible and serious university would make sure that they have a supervisor in the area of research of your PhD. The dissertation proposal is just a filtering mechanism to make sure that the student is very serious about graduate education. Some schools even ask publications before any consideration. Michael, accreditation is very important, but in academia they are more concern about the quality of the research you produce and the reputation of the department. If I'm able to produce quality research and publish in respectable journals, then the whole thing of DL or not DL won't matter. In case they question your PhD, you could always do a Post Doc at a known university in Canada and kill any argument.

 

I'm not familiar with how other university PhD programs are structured, but Touro requires that you complete your academics prior to officially beginning your dissertation. These academics include general and specific research topics. Once you are enrolled in the final course (BUS 609 Integrated Project) you can start your dissertation proposal. Upon completion of that course, you can apply for candidacy. The dissertation committee will be formed (of at least three members of the faculty - one serving as advisor) and you will be enrolled in the dissertation classes. They require you to enroll in their 700 level courses (dissertation) for at least four consecutive terms at 2 hours per course. These courses are intended to provide you assistance with the dissertation. You will also defend your dissertation. Sure, it only takes a few days to be admitted as long as you have the prerequisite masters degree in business, but you will not graduate unless you meet all of the requirements. If you have a masters degree in something other than business, they require prerequisite courses (I believe there are four).

It appears (through threads in this forum) that other programs require you to structure your own plan or your own dissertation proposal prior to entrance. I don't know if this is true, but that doesn't make sense to me. I prefer to learn how to write a dissertation proposal, conduct effective and efficient research, and make a significant original contribution.

Perhaps someone can educate me as to how another school's program is set up.

Thank you,
Gary

 

Re: Re: Re: A doctorate in business... looked at Bradford, USQ, Sturt, and Touro

There's a university located a few miles down the road from me. Here's how their religious studies doctoral program works.

There are three stages through which the student advances to the degree.

1) The student refines an area of specialization within the chosen field of study in preparation for candidacy. The student's candidacy dossier includes an approved declaration of an area of specialization, faculty course evaluations and one prescribed essay.

2) After attaining candidacy, the student concentrates on the area of specialization in preparation for the qualifying examinations in both that area of specialization and in
the broader discipline of religious studies generally.

3) The student writes a dissertation and defends it in an oral examination.

My point is that the prospective doctoral student is not expected to have a dissertation proposal in mind before he or she enrolls. In fact, even the declaration of an area of specialization isn't necessary at first.

It's up to the rest of you to decide whether this particular university is serious or responsible.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: A doctorate in business... looked at Bradford, USQ, Sturt, and Touro

Every school can have different policies. In Canada at least, you are always asked for a dissertation preliminary proposal that can give the university enough information to find a suitable supervisor. Some PhDs programs allow you to register as a special student with the intention to refine your research intentions and find a supervisor but you are not considered a PhD student till you get official acceptance. To get official acceptance in to a PhD program is not an easy thing in most of the Canadian universities, that is why I was schoked to hear that someone got in to a PhD in only two days with no GMAT, no interview and no letters of reference. I'm not questioning the quality of the PhD at TI, but if they don't filter their students I can imagine the academic level, not a good sign.
But again, it may be the only viable option for some, and if it satisfies your needs then go for it, I guess till top schools decide to offer total online PhDs we won't have too many options to choose from.

Regards,

 

In the case of USQ, we also have courses that prepare you for a dissertation proposal. The preliminary dissertation proposal that Michael is talking about is just to make sure that they have a supervisor in the interest area and that the student is really serious about doctoral studies. For example, I was intending to do research about neural networks for data mining for the real estate industry and Charles Sturt told me that they didn't have anyone for me, now imagine they take the TUI approach and they send me the letter and after 2 years I find out that no one can supervise my dissertation after taking my money. What would be your reaction? In few words, at the PhD level you should know what do before getting in to it, or at least the general field (e.g. Marketing psychology, computational finance, etc). A responsible school like charles sturt will rather reject your application than take your money if they know that you won't benefit from the program. TUI is taking your money even if they know that perhaps you won't be able to finish the program simply because they don't offer what you need. I think it is a matter of ethics.

 

RFValve,

The story is this,

Regionally Accreditation offers a low level of very process oriented quality assurance. I assures one that they are engaging in something that resembles a learning experience... not much else.

The general academic standards adhered to by the major universities in the US, and those in the UK, etc., are well above the minimal required standards of RA.

However, some universities in the US have targeted markets which are differentiated by low academic standards and, in some cases, huge pocket books.
There is a huge market for RA degrees at all levels that are as quick and easy as possible... cost is not always an issue if you can tap into corporate coffers.

 

Please cite your sources of information and/or research upon which you make such a statement.

Once again, I won't hold my breath.


Bruce

 

Bruce

Why don't you do some research for a change, instead of relying on me to correct your delusions regarding higher education and Lawrie to correction your delusions regarding world history.

 

Sorry to disappoint you, Ken, but the GAAP world is not as uniform as you imagine.

Immediate admission into a GAAP doctoral research program based on a brief description of a research topic is possible, even before there is any confirmation of requisite qualifications. Some described the process as a filtering process, which is pretty accurate...finding a match between a student and an advisor.

However, as some others have shown, the early admission does not mean you're in the door. Your prerequisite qualifications will be validated eventually and you would spend the next six or more months as a registered student (but not a candidate) developing a detailed dissertation proposal...which could then be summarily rejected if it is substandard. This is the institution's escape valve for the early admission. Experienced faculty can recognize weak preliminary research proposals and avoid this situation.

This process makes sense. For a student to do the six months of research needed to do a full research proposal prior to trying to find an advisor makes little sense to me. That is inviting the near certainty that the much of the research will be nullified by the edicts of the eventual advisor.

You seem to view early admission to a partly taught PhD program as a free ride. However, in my view, it adds additional risk in that it delays the research effort, and therefore the final admission outcome by a year or more. I don't find that comforting. Of course, the research is probably less substantial for a partly taught doctoral degree, as would be expected.

It should not come as a surprise to anyone that a 100% research doctoral program and a partly taught doctoral program are conducted somewhat differently.

Neither should it be a surprise that GAAP universities have considerable flexibility in their processes.

 

Hold you horses Ken..

Students admitted to the Ph.D. program at Touro does not mean acceptance to candidacy (ABD). He/she can start the course work and unless they pass BUS609 (comprehensive exam) the student will not be admitted to candidacy.

The committee that studied my BUS609 proposal consisted of six full time professors. The process took nearly 45 days and the student will be assigned to one of four categories (very good .... very bad).

Then the recommendation of the committee is passed to the academic dean for approval and then to the provost.

The examination of the BUS609 project by the faculty is rigorous filled with remarks and recommendations.

Eli