Graduates of TRACS

Are there any graduates of TRACS accredited programs viewing this forum?

If so please share your experience at the undergraduate or graduate level. What were your programs like? How about the perception of your degree after graduation.

Thanks!

North

 

I believe Rick Walston earned a D.Min. from a TRACS-accredited school (residentially), and there was a Luther Rice Seminary graduate around these parts at one point.

I'm surprised there aren't more ABCS folks here; doesn't it offer an 100% nonresident Ph.D.?


Cheers,

 

Re: Re: Graduates of TRACS

ABCS offers the D.Min. via DL, however, I'm not aware of any TRACS schools which offer the Ph.D. degree. I recently perused their website, which lists both accredited and candidate schools, and while several offered the D.Min., none of them offered a Ph.D.

 

Re: Re: Re: Graduates of TRACS

My understanding is that Oxford Graduate School is in the early stages of seeking candidacy with TRACS. If that were to take shape, OGS, which offers the DPhil, would be the first PhD-type degree granting institution to be accredited by TRACS.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Graduates of TRACS

This is correct. Apparently, TRACS has put off the decision until their next meeting (rumor had it that they were to have approved it by this past November).

American Christian College and Seminary does have a 60 credit hour D.Min. in Christian Counseling for those with a Masters degree but without the M.Div. Midwest Theological Seminary (candidacy) would permit me to enter their D.Min in Christian Counseling or Christian Leadership with a Masters degree but without the M.Div provided I completed a 72 hour program.

My hope is that ACCS will change the name of their 60 credit hour D.Min. to some other nomenclature. Doctor of Christian Counseling would NOT be my choice. But I am open to other possibilities. I think if OCS gets approval other schools may introduce new programs. Tennessee Temple University would be a good candidate for introducing new doctoral programs because of their solid reputation.

North

 

So, North,

Have I missed something along the way here? If you don't mind my asking, have you decided to discontinue your studies with Zululand?

Cory

 

My understanding is that ACCS had to back away from their PHD program because of their accreditation with TRACS. It will be interesting to see if that changes.

PS: North it looks like you are changing from Zulu land to Oki land.
What's up with that?

 

Greetings Robert & Cory!

The change was prompted by an unfortunate change in my marital situtation. As inexpensive as UNIZUL was, if I use my VA benefits at ACCS I not only will end up with the doctorate a couple of years down the road but it will be paid for by the VA (in fact the VA pays more than the actual cost of the program in terms of monthly benefit). In my new situation it works out better financially.

So, nothing against SATS/UNIZUL as they are both fine insitutions as far as my dealings with them and I would highly recommend them.

North

 

I was wondering if TRACS is viewed by the Theological community like DETC is by the Non- Theological community? It seems that DETC gets blasted on this forum. Should TRACS get blasted too?

It seem to me if an accreditor is DOE recognized and CHEA recoognized that should mean something.

Just a thought

 

I would think that ATS would certainly hold more prestige. TRACS is a relatively new accreditor but is continuing to grow. I think it helps having universities like Liberty & Tennessee Temple and seminaries like Temple Baptist Seminary, Luther Rice Seminary, N. Geisler's Southern Evangelical Seminary as TRACS accredited. TRACS has accredited some very credible schools like this and others and their influence may grow.

This is only anecdotal but someone (not connected to any school other than as a graduate) said that the academic dean of an ATS accredited seminary said he did not see any reason why TRACS should not be recognized on par with ATS since TRACS is CHEA recognized. I am sure this will take some time. The military already recognizes their degrees for the chaplaincy. I have seen LRS graduates (D.Min.) as faculty at a couple of Christian Universities.


One of the big differences with DETC is that TRACS accredited schools must have residential programs (ie they are not and cannot be soley DL programs). I think this gives TRACS a leg up over DETC.

I hope TRACS will continue to grow as I support their goals and orientation. Only time will tell.

North

 

How could anything be less expensive than SATS? If I read their info correctly.the whole program costs less than $2000. Would it not be easier to get an extra job for a couple of months and pay it off?

Blessings

Craig

 

I actually make money using my GI Bill at ACCS due to the difference in the cost versus what the VA pays. This works out fine as I am starting over.

North

 

TRACS accreditation does "Mean Something!"

TRACS accreditation does "mean something!" If one earns a TRACS degree one has earned a degree recognized by CHEA/USDoE, which means that the degree is legitimate, substantive, credible and recognized. Keep in mind, however, that a TRACS degree will have less utility than its RA counterpart in some scenarios. For example, some positions specifically require a RA degree. Some RA institutions will only accept a RA degree for transfer/admission into their programs. Perhaps in time this will change, but currently this is the case.

If you earn a TRACS degree, and it meets your objectives, IMO, you have nothing to be ashamed of--as you have a degree recognized by the United States Department of Education.

 

Re: TRACS accreditation does "Mean Something!"

Which goes back to the fact that nothing is 100% certain. I remember a Chaplain who went to K State for his Masters in Family Therapy (?). He stated that he was told that his AABC accredited undergraduate degree was not accredited so he had to take extra courses. This made his 2nd Masters experience more difficult than most other chaplains (there were time frames which the army expected to be met for completion). I had the same thing when I asked a local extension of a Baptisit university if DETC seminary courses could be transferred. He said "no because they are not accredited".

The up side with TRACS is that as I say I have seen LRS D.Min.'s in faculty positions and there are some good institutions with TRACS accreditation. I think the whole thing is evolving for the reasons I state in my previous post.

North

 

Well, since you asked . . .

Yes, and yes. In that order. In fact, likening TRACS' reputation in RA/ATS theological schools to DETC's reputation in RA schools is quite a good analogy.

Seriously (and I say this having taught at an RA/ATS accredited seminary for six years), TRACS has always been considered a joke by seminaries that are accredited by the Association of Theological Schools, the DoEd approved accredititor for graduate schools of theology and divinity schools. TRACS has also been considered a joke by most regionally accredited schools.

They have shown some improvement over the years, but as to their reputation in academe, my response to TRACS is still...

Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!

 

Re: Well, since you asked . . .

Just as the DL Ph.D. (100% DL & brief residencies) has been considered a joke by many within traditional academe. This perception is changing, albeit, at a glacially slow pace. And as Steve has noted, TRACS has "shown some improvement," and hopefully will continue this trend.

 

It's interesting to watch posters on this forum try to convince themselves that an accreditor like TRACS, state approval, DETC, etc. has solid utility. Stick with RA / solid GAAP or you'll pay the price.

Doubt this? Call a few schools and *knowledgeable* businesses to get their perspective. *You* are the one who has to live with the sub-par, self-limiting degree. Plus, talk to a few folks who have a decade or so of experience of actually living with a sub-par degree. Ask them how proud and loud they are of their degree.

Choosing a sub-par degree is fine, if that's what you choose to do. But don't choose such a program thinking that it's going to *somehow, some day* have good utility. It won't happen in your lifetime. Arguing that non-RA / non-solid GAAP degrees have good utility is a slipperly slope, esp. when pretending or even hinting that positive ground is being gained.

 

A brief perusal of my posts will reveal that I am an advocate of RA/GAAP programs. Each of my three degrees (BA, MA, D.Min.) is RA, with the latter two also being ATS accredited. RA is indeed the gold standard in the US and I agree that this route should be pursued if at all possible.

To state that a TRACS degree does not have "good utility" in many scenarios is unrealistic and simply not true. Does it have good utility in every scenario? No. Does it enjoy the equivalent of RA utility? No. But it is recognized by the USDoE/CHEA, therefore, in some contexts it does indeed have utility.

The issue of academe continues to surface in regard to this discussion. Academe is certainly something to consider in pursuing a degree program. However, most people who earn a degree do not spend their career serving in academe, will never serve as adjunct faculty and could care less about the perceptions of those within academe. What they are looking for is a substantive credible program which will enhance what their life objective is. In some scenario's, a TRACS degree can accomplish this goal.

Russell

BA, Lee University
MA, Church of God Theological Seminary
D.Min., Erskine Theological Seminary

 

Give me a break Engaged Org. To compare state approved, TRACS & DETC is ridiculous. Even to compare TRACS with DETC is inaccurate. First let me say TRACS & DETC *ARE* GAAP (better go back and read the definition of GAAP) and solid (ie USDoE & CHEA recognized). It has been said over and over that RA has far more utility and I would never debate that.

Let me say this about TRACS. TRACS accredits schools with residential programs. TRACS has accredited Tennessee Temple University, Liberty University, Norm Geisler's Southern Evangelical Seminary, Luther Rice Seminary, etc. Am I comparing the TRACS accredited schools to the list of ATS accredited schools such as Dallas Theological Seminary.....no. TRACS is a relatively new Conservative Christian accreditor that is growing & has made some mistakes in the past. However, a couple of UsDoE reports ago it was commended by them for their methodology (IIRC).

Does TRACS have *good utility* (not saying equivalent to RA), of course it does. If you get a TRACS degree it may meet the needs of your theological denomination, it does meet the requirements for military Chaplains (along with RA & ATS). So I guess it has happened in our lifetime. Someone doing the degree is interested in an accredited theological degree not going on to Harvard Business school with their M.A. in Biblical Studies or Apologetics.

As for sub-par, I could run around and say that since I graduated from a Top Tier school anyone graduating from a 3rd or 4th Tier or no Tier school such as UofP has a sub-par degree. Probably an unfair statement to make. Yet there are some who evaluate things like this. My wife had a boss in the civil service who told her he would never hire a University of Maryland graduate (they had extension campuses all over Germany) because they were sub standard degrees. Yet, I would not tell someone looking at UofP "oh well, some people are going to look down on your degree".

So, TRACS is US DoE & CHEA recognized, therfore the degree is accredited in the recognized sense and is GAAP.

North

 

Re: Well, since you asked . . .

Steve,

I have a lot of respect for you but as you have not been engaged in theological instruction for some time (as far as I know), I am not convinced you are current in what seminaries consider a "joke". TRACS has progressed since the time you wrote your book (to the point have having their methodology commended by US DoE IIRC).

I would be the last to say they are the equivalent of RA or ATS but they now accredit some very credible schools and anecdotal and factual evidenc suggest receiving greater acceptance.

I do not think you can continue to paint them with a brush from a book you wrote ten years ago (?).

Remeber that there are some who would consider your two year Ph.D. a joke (see thread on ballooning number of Ph.D.'s and discussion of easing of requirements over the past 30 years". I happen to respect your Ph.D. Also, remember that Union Insititute was called a diploma mill in an article posted here some time ago. Imagine continuing to characterize Union Institute by an assessment in an article that came out in UI's early days. Would not necessarily be a fair assessment. I know two Gen X Ph.D's (Cornell & Texas A&M) who consider any DL Ph.D sub standard (one told me "oh you basically buy the degree"/the other looked like he wanted to throw up at the concept).

North