National versus Regional

There seems to have been a fair amount of discussion in recent threads about national accreditation (specifically )versus regional.

I think common sense tells us Rich Douglas' study is pretty close to the mark. This is also witnessed to by a poster or two who has discussed problems with their nationally accredited degrees. Specifically, I am thinking about the recent posting involving someones attempt to get into a PhD program with a DETC masters. Capella is one of the few universities we have heard about here who are known to be receptive to DETC Masters for entry into their Ph.D. programs. My understanding is that Liberty University is also becoming receptive to nationally accredited degrees. So, it is possible things are changing.

I am pursuing a TRACS accredited (US DoE & CHEA recognized) doctorate with full knowledge of possible limitations. The program is VA approved so I can use my veterans benefits, it is priced right, is in an area I am interested in, and is accredited by a conservative Christian accrediting agency whose goals I believe in. So, the program is right (no pun intended) for me.

Nationally accredited degrees serve a niche market and certainly have more utility than an unaccredited degree. For instance, a DETC graduate could use their degree to gain employment with the state (where I live). TRACS accredited prgorams qualify for the US Chaplaincy (as long as they were residential which is the same provision that applies to RA or ATS).

Having said all of this, anyone who thinks that a Regionally accredited degree does not have more utility is delusional. IMHO, all things being equal and even not so a RA degree is preferable.

North

 

There seems to have been a fair amount of discussion in recent threads about national accreditation (specifically DETC)versus regional.

I think common sense tells us Rich Douglas' study is pretty close to the mark. This is also witnessed to by a poster or two who has discussed problems with their nationally accredited degrees. Specifically, I am thinking about the recent posting involving someones attempt to get into a PhD program with a DETC masters. Capella is one of the few universities we have heard about here who are known to be receptive to DETC Masters for entry into their Ph.D. programs. My understanding is that Liberty University is also becoming receptive to nationally accredited degrees. So, it is possible things are changing.

I am pursuing a TRACS accredited (US DoE & CHEA recognized) doctorate with full knowledge of possible limitations. The program is VA approved so I can use my veterans benefits, it is priced right, is in an area I am interested in, and is accredited by a conservative Christian accrediting agency whose goals I believe in. So, the program is right (no pun intended) for me.

Nationally accredited degrees serve a niche market and certainly have more utility than an unaccredited degree. For instance, a DETC graduate could use their degree to gain employment with the state (where I live). TRACS accredited programs qualify for the US Chaplaincy (as long as they were residential which is the same provision that applies to RA or ATS).

Having said all of this, anyone who thinks that a Regionally accredited degree does not have more utility is delusional. IMHO, all things being equal and even not so a RA degree is preferable.

North

 

Currently, IMHO, DETC is on the copper standard while RA is on the gold standard.

In the future, DETC may become valuable, but currently, it is very limited. Subsequently, I would stick with RA.

 

Or perhaps DETC is copper with a few pieces of dung (in the form of truly disgraceful schools) clinging on.

 

Absolutely. There are some cases where DETC fills a niche market. For example, you want to do a completely distance learning US Masters in Catholic theology. DETC accredits Catholic Distance University (wish they would change their name). CDU is VA approved & offers two Masters programs (also Vatican approved as a Catechetical Insititute). Judging soley by the lists of texts which accompany some courses, fairly demanding. Most people doing this degree are probably not looking to get a job in the field.

The problem for some other DETC schools is that they are competing with affordable RA alternatives.

North

 

While I certainly understand and support the choice of an RA institution, and while I would also agree that the data has clearly shown limited acceptability of DETC degrees and credits with RA institutions, I would take exception with the notion that DETC accreditation "may" become valuable in the "future".

The tens of thousands of learners that have enrolled, and continue to enroll in DETC accredited programs, many with the assistance of corporate educational reimbursement benefits, and those that have secured desirable employment as a result of completing courses of study with DETC accredited schools, have already aptly demonstrated significant value in DETC in the past and in the here and now. No waiting for the future to see value is necessary.

The relative value can be debated and opined over. However, that value has been, and continues to be realized by many many learners has been well established.

 

But I wonder how much of the “value” can be ascribed to the DETC accreditation? What if one were to edit your text as follows?

• 
  The tens of thousands of learners that have enrolled, and continue to enroll in Kennedy-Western programs, many with the assistance of corporate educational reimbursement benefits, and those that have secured desirable employment as a result of completing courses of study with Kennedy-Western, have already aptly demonstrated significant value in Kennedy-Western in the past and in the here and now. No waiting for the future to see value is necessary.
  
  The relative value can be debated and opined over. However, that value has been, and continues to be realized by many many learners has been well established.

These edited statements still seem correct to me -- even when discussing an institution without any accreditation whatsoever. I think that the fact that people have found DETC-accredited degrees usable doesn’t reflect very much on the value of DETC accreditation itself. Personally, I believe that DETC accreditation will have little positive value as long as institutions such as Columbia Southern, ACCIS, and Azaliah University (NM) remain on its roll of accredited institutions.

 

Gert, a text can be edited to make any point one wants to make. A text supporting RA could just as easily be edited to make a similar point that would apparently discredit the value of RA.

Among the examples of the value of DETC, as opposed to the Kennedy-Western example you offered, are that the US government agency (OPM) responsible for setting hiring policy states explicitly that a DETC accredited degree satisfies the requirement when a degree is listed as required. K-W would not fit here. Additionally, many companies specifically provide educational benefits for schools accredited by US DoEd approved accreditors. Other hiring policies exist that stipulate accredited degree required where accredited is defined as being approved by the US DofEd. Additionally, the data presented indicates a huge difference in acceptability among RA institutions of DETC credits and degrees over non-accredited, such as your Kennedy ?Western example.

There are many very specific examples of the value of DETC accreditation that have no relationship with any actual or perceived value of a Kennedy-Western analogy.

As I said, the value of DETC accreditation is well established and proven far beyond any anecdotal non-accredited analogy. A debate over DETC's relative value to RA is an altogether different, and legitimate issue.

I am a couple of months away from completing my doctoral program at an RA institution after a DETC MS. I would not have been admitted, as a matter of policy, if I had an MS from K-W or any other non-accredited program. Value is well established, systematic, and repeatable.

 

True, but the only edit I made was to change DETC accredited programs/schools to Kennedy-Western.

Well, I don't agree. I think the evidence (e.g. Rich's article) indicates that the value of DETC accreditation is closer to that of no accreditation than to that of regional accreditation. But the following message posted right after mine shoots a nice hole in my take on this topic: FBI and DETC.

In any case, I hope that you are right (and that I am wrong) since I have a part-time position with a DETC institution.

 

Hi North. I agree with what you say. Some comments:

I prefer to think of it as 'RA vs. Other DoEd/CHEA recognized institutional accreditors'. That removes the irrelevant geographical angle.

Certainly concerning acceptance by RA registrars and admissions officers. I think that acceptance of American non-RA but recognized accredited credits and degrees is relatively low in higher education. That probably carries over into many scholarly and professional organizations. The APA for example, requires RA degrees as I recall.

When you move into a more vocational sphere, I think that acceptance probably rises. It might be hard to judge precisely, since applicants are judged as an entire package. Education is only one aspect that might receive varying weights.

I agree with you about the "niche" thing. If a student enrolls in a program that isn't as well recognized, then he or she will have to think ahead to how the degree will be used. Will they be using it in a community that recognizes it? And do they anticipate ever moving beyond that community? A DETC degree may be great for a career employee in a federal government department. A TRACS degree may be fine in a theologicaly conservative church context. But what if that person ever wants to teach in a more scholarly mainstream university context?

It's often hard to foresee how the course of one's life will evolve in the future. Things change.

I treat state-approved degrees in much the same way. The difference is that recognition is even more dramatically restricted, to the point that the programs may only be advisable for people in special situations. The available niches are smaller and rarer, but they still exist. Unfortunately, if you occupy one of them, you run the risk of becoming an endangered species.

 

Gert, when I said, "…the value of DETC accreditation is well established and proven far beyond any anecdotal non-accredited analogy.", you said you disagreed.

The acceptance that I listed by the OPM and that of Rich's data are facts. I don't understand what there is to "disagree" with. You also said you thought that acceptance of DETC was closer to non-accredited than RA. The data presented in this forum indicates nearly 50% of RA registrars would consider DETC credits/degrees for transfer. Is 50% too low to be considered of value?

I don't understand what it is you "disagree" with. Do you disagree that OPM accepts DETC as equivalent to RA or that nearly 50% of RA registrars surveyed indicated they would consider accepting DETC credits, or that the vast majority of DETC graduates indicate a very high level of satisfaction with their DETC degree and its usefulness (read “value”) to them. What fact is it that makes you disagree that DETC accreditation has proven its consistent and repeated value?

I agree that the relative "value" of a DETC education may very well be diminished compared to an RA. However, you seem to be saying that you do not see any value "yet" in DETC accreditation. What of the demonstrable value I presented. Are you saying that these examples of DETC acceptance do not constitute value or are you saying their value is so diminished as to be the equivilent of no value?

 

I think this is a "cup half full" vs. "cup half empty" situation.

 

I do agree with you that this could be better (half empty) and it could be worse (half full). I accept that we can have differences of opinion on what constitutes value, but I still don't understand your "no value yet" opinion of DETC accreditation when it is well established that many learners obtain demonstrable value from DETC accredited programs and that many gov't and private companies formally accept DETC degrees. What more would need to happen regarding acceptance of DETC accreditation before you would determine that value existed?

 

DETC acceptance at Florida Universities

Florida Regionally Accredited, Public and Private Universities
Graduate Admissions Policy: Undergraduate Degree Requirements

The following was an attempt to compile information about acceptance of DETC undergraduate degrees for admission to Florida public and private colleges. When available, a snippet of the policy and a link to the policy was provided. An email was sent for clarification when needed.

I didn't go to any universities (such as Webster University) that are based in other states but have remote campuses in Florida.

Barry University
To be considered for full acceptance to a degree program, a graduate applicant must:
Submit proof of a bachelor's degree from an institution which is regionally accredited or internationally recognized.

Florida Atlantic University
A student seeking admission into a graduate program of the University must have a bachelor’s degree or equivalent from a regionally accredited institution or, for international students, an institution recognized in its own country as preparing students for further study at the graduate level.

Florida Institute of Technology
Admission to graduate study is granted to highly qualified applicants. Successful applicants for the master's degree will have received a bachelor's degree from a regionally accredited institution, or its equivalent internationally, in a program that provides suitable preparation in the applicant's chosen field. Admission to doctoral study is granted to a limited number of applicants.

Florida International University
>A student seeking admission into a graduate program of the University must have a bachelor's degree or equivalent from a regionally accredited institution or, in the case of foreign students, an institution recognized as an institution of higher learning. The applicant must submit official copies of all transcripts.

Florida State University
1) Have a baccalaureate degree from an accredited college or university....The applicant must hold, or be a candidate for, a baccalaureate degree from an institution accredited by one of the appropriate regional accrediting agencies. A student who has graduated from a recognized, although nonaccredited, institution may apply for study as a provisional graduate student. For information on provisional graduate students, see the following subsection on 'Provisional Graduate Students'.

Nova Southeastern University
Note: admissions policies are set individually in each department; I checked only two:

Graduate School of Computer and Information Sciences
http://scis.nova.edu/
http://scis.nova.edu/Common/Catalogs/add_mcs.html
An earned bachelor's degree from a regionally accredited institution with an appropriate major.

>Wayne Huizenga Graduate School of Business and Entrepreneurship
http://www.sbe.nova.edu/interface/finaid_window.cfm (and hit Admissions button)
>...Applicants with undergraduate degrees from regionally accredited universities will be considered for admission with evidence of at least a 2.5 GPA, or score of at least 450 on the GMAT or at least 1000 on the GRE. Applicants not meeting the standards above, from non-regionally accredited universities, or from international locations are encouraged to contact the Office of Enrollment Services at 800-672-7223, ext. 5100.

Troy State University
To qualify for unconditional admission to a Master's Degree program, applicants must meet the following requirements:
1) Hold a master's higher degree from a regionally accredited university. No test score required.
OR
2) Holds a baccalaureate degree from a regionally accredited university with a minimum overall undergraduate grade point average of 2.5 (4.0 scale) or a 3.0 grade point average on the last 30 semester hours.

University of Central Florida
All applicants for graduate admission must submit official Graduate Record Examination (GRE) scores (or General Management Admission Test [GMAT] for selected programs). Applicants must also submit one official transcript showing a bachelor's degree earned at a regionally accredited institution.


University of South Florida
In order to be considered for admission, a first time graduate student or a student transferring from a graduate program at another university must:
Have a bachelor’s degree or equivalent from a regionally accredited university,
Take the Graduate Record Examination (GRE) or an equivalent measure approved by the Board of Regents (BOR) within five years preceding application, and….Applicants who do not meet these minimum criteria may request that their applications be considered as exceptions under the 10% exception policy (see Types of Admissions)
http://admissions.grad.usf.edu/admtypes.html

University of Tampa
Students with degrees from non-regionally accredited schools will not be accepted directly into the MBA program but may request permission from the MBA director…to take foundation courses as conditional students provided that the GMAT requirement has been met. Upon completion of the foundation courses with an average GPA of 3.0 or higher, a student may be admitted to the MBA program as a full-degree-seeking student.

University of West Florida
…Applicants must meet any departmental requirements and the following criteria:
A) have earned a baccalaureate degree from an accredited college or university. Applicants must hold, or be candidates for baccalaureate degrees from regionally accredited institutions. Approval of applications from undergraduate seniors is conditional upon the awarding of the baccalaureate degree prior to commencement of graduate studies. Students who have graduated from recognized, although nonaccredited, institutions may apply for study as graduate students. See the subsection on Conditional Admission;


---The following have outstanding emails asking for clarification of their policy; either the online policy was vague or absent---

Embry-Riddle University
Clarification of “accredited” TBD via email

Florida A&M University
Applicants applying for admission to a degree program must: Hold a baccalaureate degree from an accredited institution of higher education.
-Clarification of “accredited” TBD via email


Florida Gulf Coast University
Florida Gulf Coast University
No stated policy online (other than general Board of Regents requirements).
Clarification via email: TBD

Jacksonville University
MAT program
A bachelor's degree from an accredited institution. A graduate of a nonaccredited institution may be admitted after successfully completing prerequisite undergraduate course requirements as determined by the M.A.T. Advisory Committee.
Clarification by email: TBD

Lynn University
All applicants for the Master's degree must posses a Bachelor's degree from an accredited college or university and should have a minimum B average (3.0 GPA) in upper division course work.
Clarification by email: TBD

St. Thomas University
No clear policy found online. Clarification by email: TBD

Stetson University
Note: it appears that only the Business and Law departments offer graduate degrees.
All applicants must possess a Bachelor’s degree or its equivalent from an accredited college or university….
Clarification of “accredited” by email: TBD

University of Florida
Direct admission to the Graduate School is dependent upon presentation of a baccalaureate degree from an accredited college or university.
Clarification of “accredited” by email: TBD

University of Miami
No clear policy; dreadful web site
Clarification by email: TBD


I don't consider Argosy a Florida University, but here is their policy: A baccalaureate degree from a regionally accredited educational institution, an appropriately certified international educational institution, or select institutions accredited by recognized independent national or professional bodies.

 

Re: DETC acceptance at Florida Universities

Very interesting Bill. Look forward to hearing the replies to your e-mails.

On the surface it does not come across as very hopeful. Looks like an equivalent of accredited foreign program is a better bet than a DETC program.

North

 

Re: Re: DETC acceptance at Florida Universities

I'm not going to hold my breath and bank on the efficiency of university admissions staff to speed their answers to me. I've already received one canned response with a FAQ that they hoped would answer my question; it didn't.

I've thought of one institution that I overlooked...Rollins College. I'll probably add more that I or others may discover.

 

Re: Re: DETC acceptance at Florida Universities

Hasn't it already been pretty well established as fact that if you want to get into a regionally accredited school, the foreign equivilent of RA is significantly superior to DETC. I thought that Rich and John's data indicated this.

 

John's data, not mine. I just did some statistical and qualitative analysis of it.

Your contention that foreign equivalent degrees are more acceptable to college admissions officials than those from nationally accredited schools (like DETC-accredited schools) is reflected by the data. There was a statistically significant difference between each foreign GAAP category (IHU, Commonwealth Yearbook, PIER Country Series, and foreign credential evaluation) and national accreditation. It wasn't really close. Visually, it sort of looked like this:

- RA, Some residential component
- RA, 100 Non-residential
- Foreign credential evaluation
- PIER Country Series
- Commonwealth Yearbook
-
- IHU
-
-
- National (including DETC)
-
-
-
-
-
- (Imagine a huge drop off....)
-
-
-
- Non-GAAP (including unrecognized accreditation, state approval with some oversight, state approval with little or no oversight, private accreditation, Caribbean, private Euro accreditation, etc.)

Rich Douglas

 

Bill,

Can you post a copy of the email that you sent to the Florida colleges regarding the acceptance of national (DETC) accreditation?

Just curious how the question was phrased.

Thanks.

Kevin

 

Ditto!