Just venting

So I am in my Senior Seminar Capstone course for my BA in Human Resources Management at American Military University (MGMT495) and I am very surprised at some of my fellow classmates. The last few of my core classes I have taken have been very small, typically 4-8 students in a class. So the first surprise with my Capstone course is the fact that there are 21 students in this class, a huge number compared to what I expected. Now the other thing that is surprising and actually a tad frustrating is the fact that quite a few of the students in the class appear to have almost no grasp of how to write on the collegiate level. I would expect students at an online college that is very writing intensive (anyone with experience at AMU knows it is heavy on the writing) to be very proficient at writing by the time they reached their Capstone course. Just seems utterly infuriating to be in the final class of my BA and have fellow classmates that obviously, based on their lack of writing ability, do not deserve to be there.

Please do not think that I am being a snob or an a$$hole as it is not my intent I am mainly just surprised.

 

It's not snobby to think that at all.

When reached my final thesis class in my undergrad days, I had a similar experience. However, one thing dawned on me at the time, and that is...despite, having to write many, many papers in college, not everyone becomes a good writer.

Writing is all about what to say, and how to say it, but that is not an easy thing. It requires a logical sequence of ideas and the ability to explain those ideas concisely and eloquently. These are not easy things to do at all! That is why there are so many people out there that will tell I hate writing!

At any rate, you probably won't learn much from the other papers, save for the many mistakes they make, but that will only give you a better idea about what works and what does not. Suck it up, and just give yourself the peace of mind that you are almost finished!:wink1:

 

Believe me, it doesn't change even on the doctoral level. I'm shocked by the writing of some of my classmates. It's probably not as bad as your peers, but I wonder how these people expect that they can write a dissertation. It's amazing.

 

It doesn't say very good things about the school that people with so little skill are on the verge of graduation. At the same time, I've heard similar stories about other schools. It's what leads to the conclusion that the BA is the new H.S. diploma.

 

Oh, boy! The OP has touched on a sore spot with me. I have recently gotten a tutoring job where I'm grading papers written by college students -- and I am very disturbed and even angry about what I'm seeing. These people should not even be in college because they shouldn't have gotten out of high school. The grammar is absolutely terrible, along with just about everything else.

This says a lot about what has happened to the quality of education in the USA. We have poor teachers and worse students. There is no discipline or accountability in the classroom. Education is not valued. Sports is god -- and I say that being a huge sports fan.

I taught public school for fourteen years, so I know what I'm talking about. And I believe it's getting worse, not better.

This is an indictment of society -- from parents to students to educators.

 

It is not a purely US problem. In Australia, there are serious issues with literacy in universities. Reading is not a strong point in the education system, although there are moves to increase the capability.
If I didn't know better and was paranoid, I would suspect that there was some conspiracy operating to undermine western cultural traditions. Applying Ockham's razor, however, I suspect that it is simple laziness in teaching and learning as well as the oversight of those activities.

 

I'd think there are two basic flaws that are contributing to illiteracy in the country.

1. The concept of college as a job farm. There needs to be a distinct technical school track and higher ed track with appropriate entry guidelines for both; no exceptions.
2. The lack of accountability throughout any single student's career. Teachers are responsible for a student only as long as they are in their grede. There needs to be an advisor at each level of education responsible for charting any single student's advancement, ready to change a student's track if they fall off.

 

The problem is financial.

Why fail a student when you can continue to collect $20k from them by giving them a passing grade?

 

Part of the problem may be the simple fact that some people are just lousy writers, especially undergrads. It's possible that the writing is not that much worse, it could be that your perspective has changed. Now that you are a good writer, you notice how terrible others are. My undergrad days were many years ago and I remember some terrible work being done back then. I also recall that some of my own writing was not that great either.

On the other hand, some of the problem might reflect back on the relatively poor education that many students receive in high school.

 

I have no delusions of grandeur with regards to my writing skills. I know they are not the best and I know that I need to constantly strive to perfect them. You could be write that I am just more sensative to it now than I was in earlier classes. I just assumed that the students with poor to no writing skills would have been weeded out by this stage. I suppose that my school being a for profit, even if it is one of the better for profits, is still there for money and each student counts as dollar signs even if they are not up to the requirements for conferring a degree.

 

For fun, read this book: The Rhetoric of Remediation: Negotiating Entitlement and Access of Higher Education Jane Stanley.

Here are some selected quotes or article and story titles about students and their writing. The numbers on the left are the dates of the actual quote:

1896—“By the time he is a Junior or Senior, he has lost all interest in the ‘literary’ courses. The ‘themes’ must be written, however, and the best way is the easiest…He knows just where he can lay his hands upon some fifty to a hundred ‘themes’ written by the members of past classes, that have been carefully collected and preserved by enterprising students.” Frank Norris

1904—“The most common form of deficiency of students who apply to the university — and not a few of them who actually get in—is that they can neither read nor write.” Professors Gayley and Bradley, in their pamphlet “Suggestions for Teachers of English in Secondary Schools”

1930—“Some of our students are as brilliant and as ambitious as any scholar of medieval times. Some have the mind but little desire to use it. Some are beautiful but dumb, and some are not even beautiful.” Robert Gordon Sproul to the Commonwealth Club

1946—“It is regrettable that we permit so many students to secure a degree from this institution when their ability to use their native language is as poor as it often is.” A.R. Gordon, Committee on Educational Policy

1955—”Dissatisfaction over undergraduates’ incorrect and incompetent use of English in their written exercises is both widespread and perennial. The facts are not in doubt, nor can we doubt the sincerity of those of the University faculty who express their concern at the situation. The problem is assign responsibility.” Committee on Educational Policy

1955—“Why Johnny Can’t Read,” Time Magazine Cover Story

1971—“Why read at all, when all you need are “huh” and “far out” and “right on” to get you through the business of the day? When paragraphs have become grunts, what’s the goal of searching out the pleasures of Lamb or Hazlitt?” San Francisco Chronicle

2003—“Why Johnny Can’t Write Even Though He Went to Princeton,” a revealing article by Thomas Bartlett in the Chronicle of Higher Education

 

I'd actually be more inclined to say the media is king-- people would rather know what Britney Spears said yesterday than what John Adams said 200 years ago.

Bread and circuses, folks.

 

It just goes to show that "D" is done for many people. I'm at AMU as well, and as I burn through my last few upper division courses, I see the same problem with my cohort's writing ability. I think what irritates you the most is also what bothers me: I constantly strive to improve while other are simply happy with getting by.

There are, of course, a few bright bulbs among the sea of broken ones, and I pay attention to those students so I may learn from and interact with them. Otherwise, I simply interact with the instructor via the forum or message syste, while ignoring the rest.

 

Agreed on many of the points here. I am routinely shocked at the quality of papers I grade at both the undergraduate and graduate levels. I do think these types of threads are little interesting since it is always "the other people in my class cannot write very well" - I have frequent arguments with students over grades because their perceptions of their own writing abilities are usually a notch or two higher than their actual skill level.

 

Worth noting that the illiteracy problem isn't a college problem, it's a secondary and primary education issue that needs to be resolved.

 

This happens a all the time with a lot of people, on just about every subject. It's called the Dunning-Kruger effect.

 

As I stated earlier, I realize that my writing level could stand for improvement. Spell checker and thesaurus.com are my friends quite often when drafting a research paper and forum posts. I am also fairly certain that some of my assignments were likely given an A when B was the deserved grade due to grade inflation because of my works comparrison against the "lower end" of the class spectrum. I have zero proof of this it is just an "idea" in my head.

I am far from tooting my own horn with this post. It was just me expressing something that surprises and disapoints me with my current course.

 

I was not referring to you specifically, I was just commenting a general observation I have noticed in some of my courses where students complain about the ability of others in relation to their own abilities.

 

That's true -- but it becomes a college problem when illiterates are allowed to become college students!

 

Yea, but you obviously have some solid skills to make it as far as you have. Spell-check and a thesaurus will not make someone a good writer, although they may improve someone who can already write.