A Harvard education is really no better than an education from a state school?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by SurfDoctor, Oct 4, 2011.

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  1. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator

    Here is another statement from Inside American Education by Thomas Sowell.

    He states that a Harvard education is no better than your average state school education. According to him, the only reason they turn out the best graduates is because of name recognition, and for that reason, they attract the top high school graduates. When you input the brightest students, your output is the brightest graduates. It is not because an education at Harvard is any better than you would find at any state university. In other words, it's all hype with no actual substance. People are paying huge sums of money for the name Harvard and nothing more.

    That's an interesting point of view. What do you think?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2011
  2. Woho

    Woho New Member

    "Elite" bashing is quite en vogue these days...
     
  3. keegan

    keegan New Member

    I read somewhere that there are smaller classes for more individual attention. Also the potential for networking with the "best and brightest" is worth more than your class of honours. Top schools attract the top students and top professors. Essentially what the report is saying is that it's a self fulfilling prophecy.
     
  4. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator

    Absolutely, and even if it is all hype, the name Harvard still opens doors and is, in many cases, worth the investment. I would do it and there are only two things stopping me: 1. I can't afford it. 2. They wouldn't let me in :smile:
     
  5. SurfDoctor

    SurfDoctor Moderator

    Is it really just elite bashing? What if it's the truth? I don't claim to actually know.
     
  6. keegan

    keegan New Member

    I totally agree that attending the Harvards would more often than not open doors otherwise closed to mere mortals like myself.
     
  7. Sauron

    Sauron New Member

    I have some perspective on this but certainly not the most definite due to my limited experience. I have three online courses this semester. One at the Extension school, another at a midwestern school and another at a local community college. The Extension school cost twice as the other schools but awards 4 credit hours. There is two hours of live class video that online students can participate in and four one hour sections that one may attend that is conducted by very intelligent teaching fellows from Harvard College. There is also an online forum via Piazza that you can ask questions or you can work with your teaching fellow directly. The experience is not the same as attending the Extension School in person but you can sense that the, professor, teaching assistant and teaching fellows are interested in your success.

    My class at IU East has been challenging but their is an element of engagement that is just not there. My class at Northern Virginia Community College is disappointing. The professor has posted on Blackboard 2-3 times and that is it. The grading is cryptic.

    If future Extension classes are like my current class, I will gladly pay the $2K to take classes at the Extension School for entrance into my ALM IT program. I believe the education and the method to deliver that education is effective and engaging. I understand that the Extension School is not the only school to deliver live interactive classroom video.
     
  8. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    This fails to acknowledge that Harvard is one of the premier research universities in the world. Every academic school and department at Harvard is expected to be the most respected, or one of the most respected, in its field. Many of the professors are established intellectual "celebrities" in their respective disciplines, or are on track to become "celebrities".

    Now, does this make for the best undergraduate teaching? Actually, no. As in sports, it turns out that great players don't necessarily make great coaches (and the reverse is also true -- many great coaches were lousy players). Turns out that "playing" and "coaching" are different skill sets. Harvard rewards professors for producing Great Ideas, not for their ability to instruct 19-year old kids.

    But it doesn't matter. Star students are attracted by the opportunity to study with star faculty. And once you have assembled a group of star students, the education really is better -- regardless of your prof's teaching ability. Wouldn't your classroom experience change if you could magically get rid of all the slackers and bozos, and keep just your brightest and most motivated classmates?

    By the way, Thomas Sowell chose to get his undergraduate education ... at Harvard.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2011
  9. Cyber

    Cyber New Member

    Ofcourse its "elite bashing" only when you think you are being attacked. You want Harvard to be better than other schools to feed your ego, if you have a stake or a degree from there. Is it not the same as those with degrees earned the traditional way who want DL degrees from online schools to remain perpetually inferior to their degrees (earned F@F from B & M schools), even when it is not so in all cases?
     
  10. Bruce

    Bruce Moderator

    One of my sister-in-laws is a double Harvard graduate (undergrad & M.B.A.), and she said the undergraduate program, while challenging, was not overwhelming. However, she describes Harvard Business School as one of the most stressful and challenging experiences of her life.
     
  11. Maniac Craniac

    Maniac Craniac Moderator Staff Member

    :eek:fftopic:

    And when you think that you are elite :approve:

    Excellent point, and I believe, right on the money. This is evident even within the same institution. Where I work, I've come to note that Business students are smarter, more dedicated and more reliable than the social science students overall, and this tends to have a large impact on how the professors run the class. In one class, of the social science variety, no less than a half hour was wasted answering questions about how to do one homework assignment whose directions were laid out so clearly that not a single question wasn't already answered in the directions. That also didn't stop them from repeating the exact same questions over and over. A half hour is a pretty long time to dedicate to something other than class work or lecture when you are paying tuition and when you are taking a course that is related to your future career, but this kind of thing seems to happen often in classes where the students either just aren't college material or are looking to float by and 'C' their way to a degree.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2011
  12. mcjon77

    mcjon77 Member

    I'll speak from my personal experience.

    I've done coursework at 5 different schools:
    A tier 4 state university (was also employed there)
    A mid ranked state university (Western Illinois University, where I did my freshmen year)
    A school ranked number 22 (Georgetown, where I did the rest of my undergrad)
    A school ranked number 12 (Northwestern. I only took a few classes there, but sat in on several since my mother taught there)
    A school ranked number 1 (Harvard, through their Extension and Summer Schools).

    From my limited experience (and in talking with friends with experience at similar schools), I am pretty confident in my assertion that, in general, there is a BIG difference in terms of overall quality. When I transferred from a small state university to Georgetown, the difference in the quality of both the teachers and the students was astounding. At the state school I started at, it simply was not difficult to get A's in all of my classes. Keep in mind, I wasn't taking many fluff courses (other than a Health and an ROTC course). This was calculus, macroeconomics, and several PoliSci courses (I was a PoliSci major). They were, by in large, extremely easy and went at a pace that was far too slow for me.

    When I transferred, it was like being thrown into the deep end of the pool. The courses were quite challenging and there was a healthy struggle to get a good grade. Furthermore, the depth of knowledge and experience of the professors just blew my previous school away. My exposure to Harvard's courses tells me that this is true even more for them. I don't even want to talk about how much Harvard's CS courses blew away Georgetown's CS courses.

    I attribute this to two things that are pretty much undeniable when comparing top schools to average state schools:
    1) There is an overall MUCH higher caliber of student going to the top schools.
    2) The caliber of professors, in terms of the quality of their research and contributions to their field, is MUCH higher overall at the top schools.

    The benefit of having a high caliber of student is that the professors can go further to challenge the students, thus creating an environment where the students learn more. I always felt in my classes at the state school that the professors were "dumbing down" the material. That isn't necessary when you are at a school where the assumption is that everyone is smart.

    When you are dealing with students that you assume are bright, you can go faster and cover more material, in greater depth. As an example, I would put Georgetown's CS classes on par with a state school (we had a very small CS department). Other than the classes that dealt with info security they weren't extraordinary. By comparision Harvard's FIRST CS class covers the equivalent information of 2-3 classes at Georgetown.

    In terms of the caliber of the professors, there is nothing like being taught by someone who is a leader in their field. It is a completely different experience being taught political science by someone who is simply regurgitating what he learned in grad school, and being taught by people who helped shape policy decisions on a national and international level.

    Also, great schools attract great people even if they are not professors or students. This creates outstanding learning opportunities outside of the classroom. As an example, while at WIU, I attended a presentation by the political science faculty about all of the resources they offered in their department (I was the only student who showed up). I remember distinctly how they talked about being HOPEFUL to get some guy who was running for congress in the district to speak at the university.

    Now, compare that to Georgetown. I lost count of how many presidents,former presidents, ambassadors, and prime ministers of different nations came to speak there. It was the almost daily exposure to world leaders that really made my experience worthwhile. As a government/international relations major, this was about as close to heaven as I could get.

    This is not to say that my experience at WIU was bad. I LOVE WIU and am very proud to have attended there. Furthermore, the faculty were EXTREMELY approachable and personable. WIU had an honors program that I was a part of. I can say, without reservation, that EVERY SINGLE ONE of those students in that Honors program could have done very well at Georgetown or Harvard. They just didn't have the money to go there.
     
  13. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

    Input the brightest students = clearly output above average graduates. How is that an argument against Harvard? Swimming with bright fishes will make you brighter than swimming with dumb fishes.

    THAT SAID, in my little culinary world, students who want to be the best chef they can be- to get the best training, all (still) go to "the harvard" of the culinary world- The Culinary Institute of America. In my experience, it isn't brightness that is the input at CIA, it's motive. And in any realm, input of high success-motivated individuals kicks butt over bright any day.

    So, in my estimation, the "type" of people who are most motivated/success driven, apply to Harvard (all Ivys). Harvard, in theory, selects the brightest for acceptance. (along with the "other" admits).

    You have a hyper-driven-success motivated student body being taught by hyper-driven-success motivated educators in a "money is no object, what study would you like to fund" setting. That's the breeding ground for success, period. Uh, yeah, that's different than a typical state university.

    I guess I don't get why having "good, better, and best" is considered a problem?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2011
  14. Woho

    Woho New Member

    Just to clarify my "elite bashing" comment: From my perspective the discussion is the equivalent of discussing in a car forum on the difference between a BMW, a Buick and a Bicycle. Sure, they all have wheels, sure they all get you from place A to B. But there is so much subjectivity, or even ideology involved that one almost always ends up searching in the narratives those arguments that reconfirm the personal assumptions.

    If the Ivys are so bad I wonder why Thomas Sowell didn't do his A.B. at [YourLocalStateSchool] but at Harvard, didn't do his M.A. at [YourLocalStateSchool] but at Columbia and didn't do his PhD at [YourLocalStateSchool] but at UofChicago. And is currently not teaching at [YourLocalStateSchool] but at Stanford (Fellow,I know). The question is what does motivate someone like this to make that statement? And in my opinion he is just spreading some views which are mainstream compatible (down with the "elite"!) and help to increase his personal profile with the non-Ivy but state University educated book buyers (should be imho the core market for someone like him). It is the same with these book on "you don't need a college education". On another level they serve a target group of people who want to have their own personal views re-affirmed that "those college educated's" are no better than themselves.
     
  15. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    This 2007 story from the NY Times specifically addressed the quality of the teaching at Harvard, and noted that it could be better:

    You might be wondering: where do you go for the teaching, then? Ideally, you would want a school that is full of very smart and motivated students (like Harvard) and with professors who are committed to undergraduate instruction, rather than research (unlike Harvard). As the quote above suggests, the schools that best exemplify this approach may be small liberal arts colleges, like Williams and Amherst in Massachusetts (Harvard is the oldest college in Massachusetts -- Williams and Amherst are #2 and #3; Harvard ranks at the top of the US News rankings for "National Universities" -- Williams and Amherst rank at the top for "Liberal Arts Colleges"). Another quote from the same story:

    No one doubts that professors at Williams and Amherst are great at teaching (Williams is famous for capping upper-level tutorial classes at a maximum enrollment of two). The trade-off is that professors at Williams or Amherst aren't academic superstars, like they are at Harvard. And Williams and Amherst aren't household names, like Harvard. The reality is that great teaching doesn't generate as much fame and prestige as great research does.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2011
  16. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Now, THERE's a CIA I could love!

    For sure... Oh, just a sec - you mean your CIA -- not "the" CIA? :jester:

    On the matter of Harvard, I'll go along with the crowd, here. Star students, star professors (with much, little, or virtually no teaching ability - doesn't matter) plus motivation = superior overall results. As it is everywhere - the student is largely in charge of his/her own learning experience. Those admitted to Harvard tend to be sufficiently savvy and driven to extract the maximum (and optimum) from learning opportunities set before them.

    Yes, CalDog - results always improve when the bozos are removed from the equation. That's one of the perks of DL - unless you face U. Phoenix-type group-work.

    Never bin ta Harvard, m'self. The closest I got was downloading the lecture videos from the Extension School's Digital Photography class. They were free (at least I THINK they said so) and of superb quality. I've downloaded several Yale courses and found the lectures there to be excellent. I've some Oxford and Cambridge and a couple from 500-year old French schools. I'm beginning to think that - the older the school, the better the lectures - but that could be too narrow a view.

    In the non-video world, I've taken a total of maybe 70-75 courses at two local colleges and my local University - and in very few of them, could the classroom experience even hold a candle to what I perceived in these "big name" schools via DVD. I also have a drawer-ful of DVD and CD lectures from lesser-known schools. (What's wrong with a hobby? :jester: ) Mixed bag. Some very well-presented - and some uh -- not so wonderful.

    Johann
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2011
  17. Johann

    Johann Well-Known Member

    Now, THERE's a CIA I could love!

    For sure... Oh, just a sec - you mean your CIA -- not "the" CIA? :jester:

    On the matter of Harvard, I'll go along with the crowd, here. Star students, star professors (with much, little, or virtually no teaching ability - doesn't matter) plus motivation = superior overall results. As it is everywhere - the student is largely in charge of his/her own learning experience. Those admitted to Harvard tend to be sufficiently savvy and driven to extract the maximum (and optimum) from learning opportunities set before them.

    Yes, CalDog - results always improve when the bozos are removed from the equation. That's one of the perks of DL - unless you face U. Phoenix-type group-work.

    Never bin ta Harvard, m'self. The closest I got was downloading the lecture videos from the Extension School's Digital Photography class. They were free (at least I THINK they said so) and of superb quality. I've downloaded several Yale courses and found the lectures there to be excellent. I've some Oxford and Cambridge and a couple from 500-year old French schools. I'm beginning to think that - the older the school, the better the lectures - but that could be too narrow a view.

    In the non-video world, I've taken a total of maybe 70-75 courses at two local colleges and my local University - and in very few of them, could the classroom experience even hold a candle to what I perceived in these "big name" schools via DVD. I also have a drawer-ful of DVD and CD lectures from lesser-known schools. (What's wrong with a hobby? :jester: ) Mixed bag. Some very well-presented - and some uh -- not so wonderful.

    Johann
     
  18. Ian Anderson

    Ian Anderson Active Member

    I think it probably depends on UG vs G and the degree major. For some majors I'm sure the Universities of California or Colorado University (for example) offer better degrees. Also Harvard does not offer UG degrees in some areas.

    For specific degrees (such as MBA and JD) earned at Ivy League schools it is the contacts one makes that help drive up the value of their degrees to employers.
     
  19. ITJD

    ITJD Active Member

    Meh -

    1. I have never heard anyone say "Gee, I wish I never went to Harvard".
    2. If admissions focuses on the brightest kids to enroll, they will have a better chance of graduating the brightest people.
    3. This isn't a Harvard-only discussion, feel free to insert Yale, Brown, Stanford, The Ohio State, Penn State etc.
    4. Elite bashing is in vogue any time the economy is depressed (see late 90s, late 70s, etc.)
    5. Those who bash in most cases never went to those schools and their points of reference need to be questioned due to lacking experience.

    End result: Big deal.

    To the person who stated that it was more expensive to go to the Extension school than it is to go to others, sure. It's worth it. Especially true when looking at it from my perspective. Each class at UMass Amherst was 400 dollars more expensive than each grad course at the Extension is listed at.

    Different strokes.
     
  20. Ted Heiks

    Ted Heiks Moderator and Distinguished Senior Member

    How about a Certified Internal Auditor?
     

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