The disadvantages of an elite education

Good article:

The Disadvantages of an Elite Education: an article by William Deresiewicz about how universities should exist to make minds, not careers | The American Scholar

 

This guy is a moron. I love how he slips his little jabs in at Bush. The fact is Bush had better grades at Yale than Kerry, so if Bush is mediocre, well then Kerry is even more so. The article was good until that point, I lost all respect for the author after that statement.

Beyond that, the guy has a PhD in English, its not like he was a product of a professional school at an elite university. A PhD in English from Columbia is still just a PhD in English. The guy is likely barely breaking 6 figures and is pissed he hasn't become the financial success that a large number of his classmates have.

 

But more importantly, can you talk to your plumber? :laugh2: How about this, "Here's the damn money, fix my sink!"

 

Hahaha. The guy really is the stereotypical academic liberal elitist. He preaches the values of egalitarianism then snubs his nose at anyone he deems inferior to himself and his deep understanding of Jane Austen's writing. If this guy can't relate to people it has nothing to do with his education and everything to do with his over inflated sense of self.

Next time you can't talk to another man, try the following topics; sports, dogs, cars, boats, fishing, hunting, the weather. If one of these topics won't jump start a conversation then the person isn't worth talking to.

 

Studies have shown that a bachelors degree from an elite school gives you a leg up when first entering the job market, but within 10 years of graduation that lead has diminished almost entirely.

I stand by my statement that this author is a jackass who's inability to relate to people has nothing to do with where he went to school.

 

That is what I have said all along. At some point (10 years sounds good) it is all about what you have done and what you bring to the table as opposed to where you went to school.

 

I'll see if I can find one of them, there have been several. I believe the most oft sited one was published in Business Week or the WSJ, but I can't recall specifically (I know it was a major publication).
Keep in mind, it only studied individuals with bachelors degrees. It didn't take into account graduates who then earned advanced and/or professional degrees. Essentially, someone graduating from Harvard and someone graduating from State U. would have similar incomes, on average, after 10 years.

 

Here is one of the studies. The study was performed by Alan Krueger and Stacy Dale, nearly 10 years ago and was recently revisited. The study is referenced in this US News article, dated March 1, 2011.

The Ivy League Earnings Myth - The College Solution (usnews.com)

 

The Krueger and Dale study has been highly publicized. But there's a catch:

So students at less elite schools can earn as much, in the long run, as those at more elite schools -- if they have similar abilities (as measured by college acceptance letters or SAT scores) as the students at the more elite schools.

So this finding applies to only a minority of students at less elite schools. It's certainly true, for example, that some Penn State students would also be able to get into Harvard -- but the average Penn State student would not.

And that's another catch.

At elite colleges and universities, most graduates don't stop at the BA or BS; they get advanced degrees as well, typically the MBA, JD, MD, or PhD. So this finding applies to only a minority of students at the more elite schools. It's certainly true that some Harvard students stop at the bachelor's level -- but the average Harvard student does not.

 

CalDog, as I mentioned, this is only one of the studies. I am searching to find some of the others.

Your assessment of this study is correct, school choice doesn't matter as long as apptitude/intelligence is equal between two groups.

I can't speak to the percentage of ivy grads to go on to grad school, but it's peaked my interest. I'm going to try to find some figures, work be damned.

 

It's actually a tricky statistic. If you include younger classes, the percentage may be unrealistically low, because they may not earn their advanced degrees until a number of years after graduation. If you include older classes, the percentage may also be unrealistically low, because the bachelor's degree was more likely to be a terminal degree in previous generations.

Williams College, which is rated as the #1 "National Liberal Arts College" by US News, discounts both its oldest and youngest alumni, and calculates the statistic like this:

Presumably current alumni (e.g. those from the classes of 2000 onwards) will ultimately earn advanced degres at a rate greater than 50% as well.

 

This list shows 807 advanced degrees for the Yale Class of 1980. Yale's class size is currently about 1,300, and that probably hasn't changed much since 1980.

So this list implies that around 62% of Class of 1980 alumni had advanced degrees. That's probably too high, because some alumni undoubtedly have more than one advanced degrees, and are therefore counted more than once in the list. But the 50-60% range seems like a reasonable estimate.

 

A PDF copy of their (Krueger & Dale) newer study (02/2011) which includes additional data and tracks subjects' income for decades longer. Same culmination (e.g., elite colleges don't pay off financially for most graduates).

http://www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/pdfs/563.pdf

Another interesting study:

“This investigation examines whether having a degree from an Ivy League school is associated with higher CEO compensation.”

Does an Ivy League Education Amount to Higher CEO Pay? Lethbridge Undergraduate Research Journal. 2008.

Does an Ivy League Education Amount to Higher CEO Pay?

The Price of Prestige: Is an Ivy League Education Worth the Investment? We Do the Math
SOLJANE MARTINEZ WSJ (2005)
The Wall Street Journal Classroom Edition

 

In regards to the cost of an ivy league education, you have to remember that most of these schools have moved to a system were very few of the undergrads are paying the full tuition rate and a great deal are paying 50% or less. So the cost to attend an ivy - if you can get in - is really no more than attending a large state school for most students.

 

'Any College Will Do'
Nation's Top Chief Executives Find Path to the Corner Office Usually Starts at State University (re WSJ 09/18/2006)

'Any College Will Do' - WSJ.com

 

That story also states:

One way to look at that: 90% of CEOs don't have Ivy League bachelor's degrees.

Another way to look at it: All Ivy League schools combined issue fewer than 15,000 bachelor's degrees annually, or less than 1% of the US total of around 1,600,000.

Yet they comprise some 10% of CEOs. Certainly seems like they are overrepresented.

Of course, the figure above only includes CEOs with Ivy undergraduate degrees. The percentage of Ivy CEOs would be higher if CEOs with Ivy MBAs (or other advanced degrees) were included.

 

CalDog makes a good point. And these reports always focus on the CEO positions. I think it would be interesting to see how many Ivy undergraduate grads hold C(enter discipline here)O or EVP positions at Fortune 500 companies.

Regardless of what we say here, if you get into an Ivy you should go, if you don't get in it in no ways means you won't be successful.

 

An elite education may indeed give you leg up initially, with what I was describe as the "wow factor" associated with attending such a college or university. However, what you need to understand is that your resume and you accomplishments AFTER graduation holds more weight than anything. People seem to think by earning a degree will automatically make you marketable in the real world, and a degree will open some doors, but its up to you and your skills which will determine your success after you graduate.

I know many people making six figures in business and don't have a degree. Many of these individuals are very good at what they do and they move up the company ladder without any trouble because they are very capable individuals. On the flip side, although many of them can climb the ladder within their own organization, where their character and skill set is well known; they would have considerable trouble transitioning to another company where their professional accomplishments are not known. That is where a degree comes in handy because it will open those doors and allow you the opportunity to showcase your skill set outside of your organization.

I just had this conversation with a Department Manager at a local hospital. With only an ASN, she was able to climb the company ladder from RN all the way up to Department Manager making $160K per year. However, when her hospital decided to close, she found that could not obtain the same position she was holding at another hospital without a Masters Degree. So she promptly went back to school and she is about a year away from gaining her Masters.

So just remember, a degree will open doors that would otherwise be closed. Gaining an elite degree is also very adventitious, but its what you do afterward and how you preform is what is going to dictate how much you will succeed in business or most other professions.