This is one of the oldest colleges of the University of Wales and its essence is 'religious' in the sense that it has had one of the foremost faculties of religious studies/divinity for many, many years. Which doctorate/school are you thinking of joining to do a doctorate. There is a lot of nonsense being written here about 'distance-learning' doctorate in the UK. For years it has been possible to do a doctorate at virtually every UK university by part-time research and little or no attendance! You are not comparing like with like when judging a UK and US doctoral program although there is an increasing move in the UK (wrongly in my view) to move towards the US system at a time when the US doctoral system (courses plus dissertation) is falling apart and under massive criticism. The UK move toward the PhD by 'course work and research/thesis' is a simple attempt to attract more overseas students, especially from the Middle East! Look at the paperwork issued by the group that is currently experimenting with what can only be described as a British PhD 'mode 2" - or second class?!? There is room for improving the British PhD but they are now about to throw the jewel in the academic crown away!
I'd be very interested in knowing which schools in the UK offer a doctorate on a no-residency basis; Wales-Lampeter doesn't, near as I can tell (annual residencies are required). Cheers,
If we're talking schools that offer degrees in religious/theological disciplines, the answer is quite simple: none! Approximately six weeks in residence seems to be pretty standard. A few places might allow one to get by with less (ranging from 2-4 weeks in residence); however, such schools are pretty exceptional. Cory Seibel
"There is a lot of nonsense being written here about 'distance-learning' doctorate in the UK," writes telfax. What's up with this trend of new people posting to this board and coming out with such arrogant language right away? We will have to excuse you on the grounds that you're clearly new to this. I would have to submit that, for every ounce of "nonsense" on this board, there is a pound of genuinely substantive discussion. In reality, you've not told us anything that hasn't already been discussed at length here. I, for one, have pointed out on a number of occasions that UK universities do not employ the language of "distance learning" with reference to their own PhD courses. Most refer to part-time, non-resident or limited-residency research. Some refer to doing research "externally" or even "overseas." However, no school that I'm aware of openly refers to this as "distance learning." Yet, we're pretty much all aware of that fact here. "Distance learning" is merely jargon, a short-hand term that flows much more freely from the lips than "on a part-time, limited-residency basis." The term "distance learning" captivates this reality: we're not actually there; we're conducting our research off at a distance somewhere. I'm not advocating the use of this term with reference to British PhD's. However, I don't think there's a need to speak facetiously of those who do. I'm afraid that you're overstating things a bit by suggesting that "For years it has been possible to do a doctorate at virtually every UK university by part-time research and little or no attendance." While it certainly has been possible for "home" students in the UK to engage in part-time research with minimal attendance, the wide-spread availability of this scheme of research to overseas students has been a more recent phenomenon, having been made possible by the advent of email and other advances in communication technology. Furthermore, I would suggest that it is still not true that "virtually every UK university" offers this opportunity to overseas students. By the way, Lampeter (formerly St. David's College) is actually the oldest of the colleges of the University of Wales (though not the first to formally join the university's federation). Lampeter is actually the oldest university-level institution in England and Wales (though not including Scotland), apart from Oxford and Cambridge. Finally, I certainly am a big fan of the UK system. I am completing a UK degree in which I have been taught exclusively by UK-trained professors. I think that the level of scholarship common to the British system is simply outstanding. Yet, in my opinion, referring to the British PhD as "the jewel in the academic crown" is a tad too anglo-centric for my tastes. The colonial era is long over, and the world is now a much more complex and diverse place. We certainly welcome your active participation in this board through thoughtful contributions. However, please feel free to relax. No need to come out with your guns blazing. Cory Seibel
cooperative engagement please I am assuming (too much perhaps ?) that the 'lampeter' posts emanate from my post of 2-21-02...if not forgive me but it appears that I need amplification here - I think that the PhD is a research ONLY program which does not necesarilly turn me off...research is only as good as the person doing same and if you are aware of you topic and your discipline you should be considered mature enough to meander through this maze...I also think (?) that UofW, L is NO residency but this could be erroneous...I am judging that Bear likes the institution and from what I have read on these posts there is nothing realy to dissaude me from matriculating (if we can use such a term)...if there is a perjorative (sic ?) notion it is due to the fact that so many diploma mill marauders are out and about...I do NOT think that UofW is in this league...I am receptive to their process as it fits my needs and desires...trust me when I say that I have searched high. low and in-between for a viable program...the British system strikes a respondent chord in me...come back with some definitive thoughts, tales - whatever - to amplify opinion...if you are negative towards the thing-in-itself then pull no punches...I am here for empirical reasons and not to confuse or be compliant...whatever you can offer is gravy. Thanks.
Re: cooperative engagement please OK, so here's a little gravy. I bounced around on the Lampeter website a bit and found that the Philosophy PhD requires a minimum of one month per year residency. Please see, http://www.lamp.ac.uk/philosophy/externalpg.html#extpg On the other hand, the Dept. of Theology and Religious Studies says that they "recommend" a yearly visit. There is no specific reference to the length of this visit or if you get your wrist slapped a bit if you somehow miss a visit one year. Please see, http://lamp.ac.uk/trs/postgraduate2002/researchdegrees.html The Classics Dept. says they offer a DL PhD but there is no specific reference to residency. My interest in the subject waned at this point and so you'll have to check out the other Depts on your own. I will say this though, I've been to the Lampeter website before and the current site is not the one I remember. It's somewhat new. The History Dept. pages aren't even finished yet. This may represent an overall modification in policies at Lampeter. It seems clear that our new friend telfax is mistaken when (s)he says that there are essentially no residency requirements at Lampeter but it also seems clear that our old friend Cory is incorrect in applying the "six weeks per year" standard in this case (at least in some departments). So imperoo, I hope there weren't too many lumps in that gravy. Jack
Re: Re: cooperative engagement please You are absolutely correct in stating this. Lampeter is one of the "exceptional" cases to which I refer above. I did not mean to be interpreted as suggesting that the 6-week residency expectation was true of Lampeter, only of limited-residency UK PhD's in general (at least in theological departments). Based upon my discussions with representatives of the Lampeter theology/religion department, I think that you've quite accurately captivated the situation there as far as residency requirements are concerned. I have been given the impression that a couple of weeks in residence is generally expected. However, as you suggest, nothing seems to be very hard and fast. I join you in favoring gravy with as few lumps as possible. Cory S.
to Messers Tracey and Seibel predominently thanks for your replies...they are showing me that my own confusion is not to be interpreted as manifest stupidity...it is encouraging to view that Doc Bear posts here so I think I'll take the bear by the paw (so to speak) and ask him outright WHAT is the upshot of UofW,L...going to Wales for a month is NOT off-putting since there are a myraid of cop-outs that could be initiated NOT to visit ALL of the time (until absolutely necessary)...by the by do you two (2) or others know of any viable British school that can be "done" without all of this fol-de-ray...I grow exceedingly exhausted dealing with the thinking that yes, THIS is "the one" and it turns to gruel even as I speak...I do think UofW, L is worth applying (to) even though they are NOT forthcoming with fee information...the website (as mentioned) is being constructed and snail mail would be preferable at this time and place - however I am fighting the half-decent fight in hope that somehow someway (not this isn't Steven Soundheim) I will connect with a school that does NOT have me trucking off to South Africa...PLEASE stay in touch as you both have valuable insights and Lord knows I need whatever I can ferret at this time and place...imperoo
Re: to Messers Tracey and Seibel predominently FWIW, I can sympathize; I applied for, and was accepted in, an Australian Ph.D. program for Semester 1, 2002, and am currently an enrolled student; but there's about a 40% chance that I won't be able to get the residency requirements waived, in which case I'll need to drop out by the end of March to avoid paying tuition. (Luckily, I now have two credible backup prospects.) Once South Africa settles down a little, it might be possible to negotiate a nonresident theology program there again; right now I'd be a little nervous applying on a nonresident basis to any South African school but UNISA, but all indications are that the universities of Pretoria and Free State will be safe, and that the GST/Potch arrangement will continue under the banner of whichever school Potch merges into. For Australia, the only guaranteed option I've found so far is Curtin University of Technology. The rest range from slight maybes to strong maybes. Cheers,
the best course in no recourse... ...thanks for the 'heads up' regarding South African schools...UNISA of course is the best of all possible worlds but the bottom line is that perhaps one should look elsewhere and the British system seems to be the ticket...what I would like to discuss is the viability of alternative PhDs...do they exist and if they do what good are they...this then is the question...any answers ?
Re: to Messers Tracey and Seibel predominently To the best of my knowledge there does not exist a legitimate British university that will tell you up front that you can do a 100% non-residential research doctorate at their school. This, however, does not necessarily mean that there are not people doing 100% non-residential research doctorates in various legitimate British universities. My understanding of this is that the complete lack of residency places a large burden on the faculty sponsor/advisor. It becomes more difficult for that person to vouch for you and your work if they never meet with you. After all, their reputation, to some degree, depends on the quality of the students they sponsor. They might be willing to offer such sponsorship to someone with whom they've had some previous relationship, but they are understandably reluctant to offer sponsorship to someone they have never met and are not likely to meet. If you can develop such a relationship then you might have a chance. How to do it? Find a school that offers a degree program that fits. Find a faculty member in the department that has interests similar to your own. Then proceed in the time honored and time tested way ... suck up Jack
