Which school?

Hello All,

I just joined, and looking for some answers to some questions I have. I am interested in completing a degree, and working on completing a BS in General Business via exam. I am just not sure I know where to go from here. My main goal is to be able to go on to Harvard, and get a Phd in Political Economy. I have experience involving business, politics, and history, so I am considering the following:

Excelsior- Liberal Arts (Political Science & Economics) & General Business

TESC-BA in History and English and BS in Business Administration.

With all things considered, and going by TESC assessment policy I could complete these with a high GPA (Excelsior since TESC doesn't offer GPA on assesment or profiency exams) by the end of 2003. What options should I consider? Excelsior said they have students in the Phd program at Harvard, and that is where I am wanting to go. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Matt

 

Just go to Harvard and become a full time. Don't waste your time with Excelsior or TESC

 

To tell you the truth, and please know that I am a great advocate of distance education, I think it would be hard to go from a DL undergraduate degree, into a residential graduate program. Most US doctoral programs today usually either award a masters "on the way" or require one for placement in the program. You don't outline any plan to get an M.A. Do you plan to skip it? I think DL works best on a residential foundation, not the other way around. If you are even remotely serious about a Harvard Ph.D. (the "D" is upper case) I would go at least to a residential, traditional state university. Then you would have a much better shot at a TA ship, without which graduate school is a financial hell.

Best of Luck

Craig

 

Craig-

I hope I'm correct in assuming you're making that statement specifically to the Harvard PhD question and not just stating broadly a difficulty moving from a DL undergrad to a traditional grad program. But your statement could be misleading to someone looking for advice on starting an undergrad DL program.

The fact of the matter is that it's not difficult at all to move from a DL undergrad program to a traditional graduate program. If DL were that restrictive, it wouldn't be seeing the success it is. Many of us have gone from DL undergrad to traditional grad schools successfully and without being questioned.

Now, as to the utility for entering Harvard, well.......???

Rick
BA- USNY '92
MS- Cardinal Stritch University '97

 

I am not really worried as of right now about the fiances, as I have my own business, and it shouldn't be a problem.

Honestly, I am just curious if this would help me get into a program (either Master's or Doctoral) at Harvard. I may wait until later to get my Ph.D, and instead go for a Master's in Public Policy and Economics. I want to get into politics, and I know the ecomony is the deciding factor in elections. The more knowledgie I have in that area can help me successfully change many aspects of our current system, which need serious reform. The other thing side of it is that understanding what causes the changes in the economy, and having a greater understanding of how the economy works, will help me make more money in the markets in the future. I also would like opinions on the Master's in Liberal Arts from Excelsior. I am considering it to go along with my others so I can concentrate it on an area such as East Asiain Relations. Would this be an advised approach? Thanks in advance.

Matt

 

Matt: I think your idea of approaching Harvard via extension is a good, solid one. Extension classes are a pretty viable backdoor to university matriculation. Good Luck! If your heart is set on Harvard, then Harvard it should be.

Rick: Actually I was speaking in fairly general terms. I think DL works better at the graduate, rather than undergraduate, level. I feel that the experience of being "in" college is very valuable for most students, as is the traditional student-teacher-student classroom "interface." At least that was true for me. I am certain that for many thousands of people getting a DL undergraduate degree has paved the way for a very satisfying experience in a traditional, or even semi-traditional graduate program. I am not questioning the value of a DL degree in terms of learning outcomes. But I do think the best (not only!) preparation for a residential graduate degree is a residential undergraduate degree. For me, the experience of DL was very different from either the undergrad classroom or the graduate seminar--equally valuable perhaps, but very different. Again, for me, and I respect those who have taken a good DL option at the BA level, my undegrad years at a traditional school were by far the most important and formative in my life. At that age, 18-22, (some 25 years ago) I needed personal interaction with my professors, and especially, with other students. God bless CSULA.

Late, and thanks for your input:

Craig

 

I think there are two separate, but important, issues here.

The first is getting into Harvard: Regents/Excelsior's promotional literature specifically says that students have been accepted to Harvard University graduate programs on the basis of their degrees, but I have no way of knowing what mitigating circumstances might have been involved. For my part, I had no trouble using my very nontraditional (114 of 123 hours were by exam) to get into two master's programs, one of them residential, both of them at brick-and-mortar institutions; and when I called the chair of the philosophy department at a top-tier southeastern university to ask about doing an interdisciplinary philosophy-and-anthropology M.A./Ph.D., he was not only bullish about my chances, but expressed a willingness to go to bat on my behalf. I would say it's entirely possible to get into Harvard with a Regents/Excelsior bachelor's, though if my number-one goal were to get into Harvard, it wouldn't be my first choice.

The issue of whether or not the traditional college experience is necessary is certainly important (if something of a badly-beaten dead horse), but I feel the need to mention that age 18-22 is the age most people begin to psychologically function as adults, regardless of whether or not they go off to college. I didn't suddenly achieve the maturity of an average 22 year old when I finished my bachelor's at 17, but I'd certainly graduated from college, and that's all a bachelor's degree is supposed to show.


Cheers,

 

Very true, Tom

Harvard is quite willing to consider applications on an individual and case by case basis, I hear. I agree with all that you say. For me, and I think for many people, the residential experience of "going to college" is as much a part of this process of maturity/education as is the academic element. In a real sense, what is the difference between education and maturity? Don't get me wrong, I think a DL BA would represent a more difficult path for most people. But even if one could get into a "Harvard" with a DL undergrad degree, it would take a rather impressive person to easily make the transition into a residential doctorate.

Craig

 

Good points, Craig; thank you. My thoughts...

On going away to college as a major formative experience for many people: No question about it; but it really depends on what your individual characteristics are, what sort of relationship you have with your family and home community, what sort of relationship you eventually have with your peers and professors (probably the most important factor--nobody says "I want to go off to college so I can become a depressed loner, spending my days kow-towing to seething professors and my nights getting drunk and watching porn, eventually scraping by after six years with a 1.7 GPA and a major in a field that bores me to tears"), and what you want the college experience to be for you, whether you're really there for study or whether your heart lies elsewhere, and so on. But I agree that, culturally speaking, it tends to play a rite-of-passage role for us; it's Something That One Does, and for many people, college is the thing that turns an overgrown kid into an adult (just like the Army, or the Peace Corps, or a few years in a monastery works for other folks).

On education and maturity: Not the same, though life would be easier for me if they were; not only am I sometimes a living argument for their distinction, but I've run into others--for example, the occasional Ph.D. with an emotional age of 9 (or, in some cases, 2; "MINE!"). I agree that education and maturity can help each other along, though.

On going from a nonresident bachelor's to a resident master's program: I did a completely nonresident bachelor's after K-12'ing it as a homeschooler. I've taken three graduate courses (two A's and a B) and about a half dozen enrichment/noncredit courses (usually positive experiences); some of my classmates think I'm a little weird (because I always get my assignments in on time, almost never skip any assigned reading, and actively bring up weird fringe topics for class discussion), but my professors usually love me (I treat them like peers and refuse to suck up for a good grade--and since I've never had a control-freak for a professor, this is a good thing). The only other guy I knew personally who did an external bachelor's--a Marine who also graduated from Regents--went on to law school and did very well. This matches my experience with homeschoolers who went on to do residential college programs: Sure, their lack of familiarity with residential schooling is a minus, but their lack of hangups makes up for it with gusto. Starting off with a nonresidential experience is a good way to stay out of the "us vs. them" mold, where the students are on one side of the gate and the instructors are on the other. (Which isn't to say that it works for everybody, but it certainly worked for me, and for the vast majority of other homeschoolers I've ever met.) But is transitioning from a nonresidential undergraduate program to a residential graduate program difficult for some people? Almost certainly, even if I haven't met them yet.


Cheers,

 

Thanks for the advice so far. One thing I am definately considering is taking political science and economics courses from Harvard Extension School. My theory is that it would help when applying to the Master's program because I would have experiece with Harvard level work. Am I on the right track here?

Also, I am wondering if my multiple degree plan that I mentioned earlier (mentioned again below) would give me an advantage when applying to Harvard as far as depth of education in Bachlor's programs? If I could graduate from Excelsior with Honors? My feeling is that all are relevent to politics in one way or that other.

Excelsior- Liberal Arts (Political Science & Economics) & General Business

TESC-BA in History and English and BS in Business Administration.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Matt

 

Matt: I think you would only need one degree to get into Harvard. If money is not a problem, do a few residential courses and a few good DL courses and a Harvard ext. course or two, then transfer to Harvard. As for grad school, one thing that we have not mentioned is GRE scores; to some programs they are very important; to others just another point of consideration. I have no idea where Harvard stands. Why not contact a Political Science professor at Harvard and "tell your story"? If you get a tenured full professor with any degree of reputation strongly on your side--this is true at any school--you can get in. I don't know if the level of work there is unusually or unapproachably high--I mean, taken all in all, lots of mere human beings have graduated from Harvard. Academic work can only get so difficult. I suppose Harvard is still widely considered the best school in America (in point of fact I think UCB has a very nearly equal, if not even better, reputation in the academic world), but I think for most people Ha'vaad is it--not bad for a Puritan Bible College.

Good Luck,
Craig

 

Tom: You are right about homeschooling. I have known quite a few who have ended up doing well in both religious and secular schools; good point. In any kind of dispersed residency program vs a traditional program, you are simply trading one kind of educational/growth experience for another. I read about a college, I think it may be called Patrick Henry, that is designed entirely to serve the home schooled. Have you heard of such an institution?

Thanks, Craig

 

Typically graduate admissions are always taken on a individual basis. Most would agree that the college experience is great for the average 18-22 year old range. For those that are adults returning to college the residential experience isn't the same. Excelsior with about 100,000 alumni has had considerable success with its students going to graduate school at institutions of all types. TESC and COSC have had similar successes. COSC has published schools that have accepted its grads and I would expect that the Excelsior and TESC experience is about the same or even expanded further due to a larger alumni base. Look at: http://www.cosc.edu/alumni/grad_acceptances.htm

Bottom line -- you should not let DL studies be a limiting factor.

John

 

Matt: Craig and John are right on track; if it turns out that you really can't get into a traditional Harvard program on the strength of your one bachelor's, you can always sign on for a low-residency Harvard ALM program in economics and/or political science, where all but one semester can be done off-campus; and then the ALM should help your chances when you go back and give it a second go. Another thing: I'd bury my face in GRE prep books for the next few years while doing my bachelor's, because a high GRE score can do wonders for your chances.
If you really can't get into Harvard by hook or crook (and many people--regardless of whether or not their background is nontraditional--simply can't), you might consider Oxford, Cambridge, or the London School of Economics; I think the latter is purported to offer Ph.D. programs with only two months of annual residency.
In any event, good luck.

Craig: Thanks for your kind words. I've found Patrick Henry University to be somewhat disappointing so far; I had hoped it would become the next St. John's College or New College, and, it ain't. I think this is primarily due to a lack of focus--when Patrick Henry U was proposed, there was a very real problem with discrimination against homeschoolers. Now that homeschoolers are getting admitted to Ivy League schools on a regular basis, Patrick Henry isn't really necessary; it seems to appeal primarily to parents who are concerned that their homeschooled children might be negatively influenced by secular culture, but the U.S. is already full of schools (across the denominational spectrum, from Seton Hall to Bob Jones) that don't present a secular culture . So I don't know exactly what its purpose is supposed to be, unless it's for homeschoolers who only want to hang around with other homeschoolers (and because homeschooling is such a diverse movement, I'm not sure that's a really useful idea, either). It has promise if it can emphasize nontraditional pedagogy over conservative ideals; if it can turn into a sort of committee mentoring university, where students "unschool" their way through a four-year bachelor's, it can be a beautiful thing. But that would probably take a great deal of money, and I don't know that they're making very much. I'd love to hear from someone affiliated with Patrick Henry University--as a student, administrator, or instructor--so if there are any of you lurking, please chime in.



Cheers,

 

"I've found Patrick Henry University to be somewhat disappointing so far...So I don't know exactly what its purpose is supposed to be, unless it's for homeschoolers who only want to hang around with other homeschoolers (and because homeschooling is such a diverse movement, I'm not sure that's a really useful idea, either). It has promise if it can emphasize nontraditional pedagogy over conservative ideals; if it can turn into a sort of committee mentoring university, where students "unschool" their way through a four-year bachelor's, it can be a beautiful thing." Tom Head

Tom,
I'm not in anyway affiliated with Patrick Henry College, but I am a big fan. Patrick Henry College was the focus of one of my research papers for a Strategic Planning class. Why do you find PHC disappointing? From everything I've read PHC has been very successful, especially in inter-collegiate debate. The college's purpose is quite clear, the mission statement says:

"The mission of Patrick Henry College is to train Christian men and women who will lead our nation and shape our culture with timeless biblical values and fidelity to the spirit of the American founding." <www.phc.edu>

Patrick Henry College admits only Christians. The Patrick Henry College application contains the following statement of faith, which must be signed by the applicant:

"- Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, is God come in the flesh.
- Christ's death provides substitutionary atonement for our
sins.
- Jesus Christ literally rose bodily from the dead.
- Jesus Christ literally will come to earth again in the
Second Advent
I certify that: I fully and enthusiastically subscribe to the above statement of faith. I also certify that I have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior for forgiveness of my sins"
<www.phc.edu/about/mission.asp>

This exclusionary policy has not had a negative effect on enrollment at Patrick Henry College for the following reasons:

"In the nineteenth century, when public schools were Protestant in flavor, a vigorous Catholic school movement sprang up. Today, as the schools have become increasingly secular, a vigorous Christian (largely conservative Protestant) school movement developed." (The Public Interest, No. 140 (Summer 2000), pp.
74-85. copyright [©] 2000 by National Affairs, Inc.)

Currently the student body is only 160. The college has a goal of having a student body of 250.

All PHC students also complete an apprenticeship, giving them the opportunity for "real world" experience.

 

But I thought Patrick Henry University existed primarily to serve the needs of homeschooling students; now a look at their mission page tells me that they "welcome" homeschoolers (that's nice; so does Harvard), but otherwise I feel like I'm looking at yet another vanilla conservative institution. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing in itself--I'm always happy to see a more ideologically diverse Academy--but if it's not going to be homeschooling-focused, shouldn't it at least obtain regional accreditation? (Maybe you can tell me whether or not that's in the works.)


Cheers,

 

Tom,

PHC is pursuing accreditation by the American Academy for Liberal Education (AALE). I had not heard of AALE before reading about PHC's application. They seem to be very well regarded. The ABA recognizes AALE accreditation for entry into ABA approved law schools.

"Accreditation vote postponed
Patrick Henry College was on the agenda for possible accreditation by the American Academy for Liberal Education (AALE) on November 3, 2001. The board vote followed a very positive site team visit in September and a favorable report. (The team was at PHC on the fateful morning of September 11th.)
However, the board had questions concerning PHC's program and philosophy, which were not addressed as fully by the site team as the board would have liked. Accordingly, the accreditation vote was delayed until the next meeting, which is scheduled for April 2002. In the meantime, the college was asked to address three issues raised by the AALE board: 1.Our timeframe for offering Biology (fall 2002); 2.Our plans for offering distance learning (it will be offered when the technology is more suitable); and 3.Our personnel procedures for faculty (details were added to clarify our existing policies and procedures).
The issues concerning the faculty were not merely matters of process. AALE wanted to know how much freedom of inquiry is permitted for PHC faculty. This is obviously not a small matter; it goes to the heart of our ability to create a college where the Bible is seen as the source of truth.
Our educational philosophy is to teach students the arguments advanced by those who conflict with the Christian worldview, but we will never hesitate to declare what we believe to be true. Consider the issue of homosexual marriage as an example. Students need to genuinely understand the arguments made in favor of this concept, but we will never compromise on biblical truth.
President Michael Farris went to the Washington, D.C. office of AALE and visited with its president, Jeffrey Wallin, to clarify the issues surrounding these matters. After this visit, Farris said, "It appears that we have a paperwork problem, not a philosophical problem with AALE. We do not mind having more detailed documentation of our philosophy and how it will be implemented."
PHC is confident that AALE's philosophy (which believes that the educational traditions of Western civilization are worth preserving) is compatible with our own. "But," Farris added, "there is no chance whatsoever that we would change our philosophy to gain accreditation.""
<http://www.phc.edu/news/trumpet/2002_02/2002_02_05.asp>

 

Well. I won't wish them good luck while listening to an Elton John album (and Burn Down the Mission, at that), but I will say that if AALE rejects them, their odds of getting TRACS accreditation would probably be quite good (and TRACS, like AALE, is a recognized accreditor).


Cheers,

 

Patrick Henry College Denied Accreditation

Well Tom, I guess the AALE folks agreed with you.

"Patrick Henry College announced today that it has filed an appeal from a decision of the American Academy for Liberal Education (AALE) to deny its accreditation solely because it requires its faculty to adhere to a Statement of Biblical Worldview. AALE singled out PHC's view on creation for special criticism."

http://www.phc.edu/news/docs/200205100.asp

 

Re: Patrick Henry College Denied Accreditation

Good for AALE!

But as Tom suggested, TRACS takes a diametrically opposite view. From TRACS' 'Institutional Eligibility Requirements', p.4, number 5:

A comprehensive, clearly-written, published Biblical Foundation Statement that is in harmony with the TRACS Biblical Foundations Statement.

What that means in practice is this:

Institutions accredited by TRACS exemplify the highest standards of Christian education. Students study in a Christ-centered learning environment under Christian professors, whose goal is to develop the whole person body, mind and spirit. All TRACS colleges and universities are evaluated on Biblical Foundation as well as operational standards and criteria during the accreditation process. This equates to Christian campuses which employ only Christian professors, are drug, alcohol and tobacco free, require church/chapel attendance, emphasise the building of Christian character in all students, and avoid actions that are forbidden by Scripture.

Author
Russell Guy Fitzgerald, Ed.D
Executive Director
Transnational Association of Christian Colleges & Schools (TRACS)

http://www.internationalgraduate.net/articles/religion.htm