Why is B&M academia often unwilling to hire a DL doctorate holder?

I have my own opinions on this, but I was interested in hearing from the board on this one.

I know there are exceptions, but I'm pretty sure that there is a general bias in B&M academia against doctorates that were earned via DL. It is my understanding that it would be extremely difficult to land a first time professorship if you earned your degree via DL. I know there are DL doctorate holders in professor positions, but I have been told that most of them were already working at the school and had earned a good reputation before they earned their DL degree. So....

Do you think they are usually against DL because they feel threatened? Do you think they are against DL because they think it's inferior? Is DL inferior? Or, are there other reasons?

 

First at all, let's differentiate between online programs and online for profit institutions. A holder of a PhD or DBA that was earned off campus from Henley College, Grenoble, Glasgow, University of Manchester or University Of Strathclyde, wouldn't have problems getting full professor teaching positions because these institutions are solid and nobody would care if the degree was earned off or on campus.

PhDs or DBAs from online institutions are not taken so seriously by academics because they have different standards. For starters, solid institutions use full time faculty that supervise very few PhD students at the time while online schools hire part time faculty that are paid only few thousand per student. The quality of supervision is not the same and the output cannot be the same.

Online for profits pay very little to teach online classes and rely heavily on adjunct faculty that hold for the most part doctorates the same type of online institutions. You cannot expect that a poorly paid online adjunct that relies on good course evaluations to keep getting work would require the same rigour than a tenure professor that has job security and is getting paid at least 100K plus a year.

You cannot expect that institutions that require high standards (e.g. GMAT, publications, etc) would accept graduates that have lower standards (e.g. lack of rigour, open admissions).

This has nothing to do with the delivery format of the degree. There are also quite a few brick and mortar for profit institutions that have similar practices. Graduates from these programs also experience problems getting academic work.

As more quality institutions start offering doctoral programs, you will see that the bias towards the delivery format will become less of an issue.

 

This is true. I work for a business faculty here in Canada and we have a hire freeze that will last at least 3 years. Tenure tracks are becoming really hard to get. On one hand you have a huge demand for poorly paid adjuncts and on the other you have shrinking job opportunities for full time academics.

I really do not see that online PhDs will become so popular in the future, as people realize that they are a waste of time, you will see the demand for this type of programs decreasing.

The demand is high now because there is the perception that PhDs make a lot of money as professors. There are also a lot of government institutions including high schools, elementary schools that pay for this level of education. As the number of PhD graduates increase, you will see a lot of changes for this type of policies. Why would you want a kinder garden teacher with a PhD in education? As it is, many schools pay better salaries for PhD holders teaching at kinder gardens.

 

Good point. I have been in online programs where the teachers rake you over the coals, but I have also been in a couple where the saying "pay your fees and get your B's" seems to ring true. It seemed like they adjuncts were pandering to the students because their job security depended on getting a good review.

In my doctorate program at Liberty, a B&M school, my current online class is taught by an assistant professor, not an adjunct, and he is brutal on our papers...I love it! I feel I'm being groomed to write a dissertation. That's the way a DL doctoral program should be.

 

I agree with all of your points - I could never get a position at USF with an NCU PhD. Would you say the same apply for two year or four year institutions that do not offfer PhDs? How about small liberal arts schools?

 

It could be said that what we call DL today metamorphosed from correspondence programs (many in academia and the general public still view DL programs as correspondence programs). That said, B & M academia view degrees earned via DL (or through correspondence with very limited contact with faculty and without any means of knowing or verifying who really did the work) as inferior, and holders of such degrees ill-prepared for the job.

Besides, doctoral degrees are very serious degrees; and in some parts of the world, doctoral degree holders are highly respected and challenged. The respect accorded doctoral degree holders emanate from successfully going through the rigor of doctoral work, which is generally assumed or known to be very tedious, tough, and purposefully made to be stressful to the students (a measured dose of academic stress). The sense is that holders of doctoral degrees earned via DL (especially those earned from internet-only schools) did not go through the rigor and tediousness associated with earning such a degree; they rather take a short cut to earning the degree and as such, they should not be rewarded as folks who attend doctoral programs full time for 4, 5, 6, or 7 years.

A professor once asked me this: If my job requires a master's degree and everyone else in my same position have one, would I be Ok if all of a sudden folks with associate degrees start arguing that they should hired for my position because of whatever reason (including experience, which are often cited by DL degree holders)? He also added "Why don't people want to go to school the traditional way; they want to take short cuts, attend easy programs that only require tuition payments with basically no quality control, and then they want to be given opportunities for what they have not worked for." The other issue he raised was if traditional academia were to be dominated by holders of PhDs from online schools, many students, parents and the general public would loose confidence in the system. "Tell me of any DL school that has produced breakthrough knowledge or discovery in any field"? Those come from dedicated research that occurs in traditional academia, he added.

Personally, I agree that DL degrees from internet-only schools should not be allowed near academia; in fact, they should be kept away from traditional academia (aren't you tired of reading bad grammar from PhD degree holders from internet schools?). I also agree that if a person with a DL PhD engages in what traditional professors at B & M schools do; namely: conduct research, present their findings at conferences, write books, remain active members of their CoP and profession, then certainly, they are qualified to teach in B & M academia. Otherwise, they should not expect to attend some online school that only requires them to pay tuition, and then automatically think that they now rank among graduates from traditional schools who engage in the type of research that actually create stuff.

 

There you go again; you can't say that a DL doctorate is always a waste of time. It might be true if your only goal was to be a professor, but there are other motivations. Mine, for example, comes with an automatic pay raise that I could not get in any other way. Also, it opens the door for a promotion to principal. A position that will be opening up at my school in a few years. I'm already in line for that job and a doctorate in education, DL or not, will give me an edge. That promotion, if it happened, would almost double my salary and pay for my doctorate in about 5 years. The other, automatic pay raise alone will pay for a good portion, though not all.

Moreover, there is the joy of learning on a high level. I am having a blast. I love doing research and I love writing. I would do this even if there were no monetary benefits. How can you say that is a waste of time?

 

Community colleges are different, they are more interested in your hands on skills and working experience than fancy doctorates. They are an excellent option because you have the benefits of tenure but do not need to worry about the research and publications.

The PhD is more a plus but not a requirement so I don't see why someone would care if your degree comes from an online school.

 

So if we (holders of degrees from online schools) are able to conduct research we should be allowed to stand next to them (holder of degrees from B&M schools)? Wow, I certain hope I can measure up one day. Look, even all the words are spelt right. I guess I am off to a good start!

 

I believe that with a possible increase of PhD holders from online schools, you will see this type of automatic increases because of PhDs policies changing in the future.

Schools will start seeing a noticeable increase of kinder garden, elementary and high school teachers getting online doctorates. At some point, they might realize that this level of education is not require for the job and stop paying for this.

In Canada is happening already, our provincial government refused to pay higher for PhD holders in our last contractual agreement arguing that this level of education was not required to teach at 2 year colleges but finally after some negotiations agreed for a payment differentiation as 30% of teachers hold doctorates.

I would think that also citizens would protest to pay school administrators higher just because a doctorate.

Let's face it, the doctorate is really not required to handle paper work or teach at kinder gardens.

 

Exactly the point. If you look at USFs requirements it is a PhD from an AACSB school...blah, blah, blah...present...publish...academic research...grants, etc. Who in their right mind would think they can land this position with a Capella, NCU, or Walden PhD? A TT position at a reseach institution is not the goal of all people that earn online PhDs and if it is, they are misdirected.


I think I spelt everything right again!

 

That's possible, but here in California at least, doctors that teach in K-12 are extremely rare. I have been involved in education for many years, know a great many teachers, and I only know of one non-administration individual who teaches K-12 with a doctorate. Moreover, online schools are not pumping out doctors as rapidly you might think, it's still quite a struggle, even if it's not on par with traditional programs. Most people drop out of online doctoral programs. They are signing people up in droves, but the vast majority are not graduating.

However, I agree with you on the fact that an online doctorate is not quite on the same level as a good quality B&M program. But that does not mean that they are useless or a waste of time. One would never land you a professorship, but that's not the only motivation.

 

Also, there is no discourse that I'm aware of here in California about dropping the final and highest pay column in the teacher's pay matrix. Actually, the matrix does not specify a doctoral degree; it merely requires a number of graduate units above a master's degree. So I was inaccurate when I said that the pay raise could not be accomplished in any other way than earning a doctorate degree; one could take random units, I suppose, and still qualify. Actually, it appears that an EdS would also do the trick.

 

Randall, please know that none of what I wrote referred to you in any way or form. All my statements are generalized; in fact, the "bad grammar" statement was in reference to one of my TUI professors (I've talked about this particular professor before... how he changed an IT Foundations course into a "communication skills" course). I've insinuated that I'd rather be in your shoes, and you know this (from my previous posts). Again, I respect your many educational accomplishments, and nothing that I say in regard to DL PhDs (positively or negatively) is directed at you. I would readily accept your PhD (I've asked to borrow it before jokingly) if you feel like...

 

Also, it is nto the same committment, same cost, same level of b.s., same political stuff, etc.


Damn, spelt a word wrong. Guess I am taken down a peg

 

I understand it was not directed at me but I am in the "general group". Thanks for your comments and I told you before - you can borrow it but wear the body armor when you post here. :blackeye:

 

That's OK, my Englush skilz are not much gooder.

 

I don't have much respect for this school either. I attended their faculty training and was required to offer students to resubmit assignments that were graded with an F. Basically, I got the impression that they don't want you to fail anyone. This was for a doctoral course, I did not go as far as getting the training to become a doctoral dissertation supervisor but I feel that they might have similar policies.
How can you expect academia to feel respect for their graduates when the policy is to pass anyone that can afford to pay their fees?

 

Yup, but I gots my edukation online. Now eyes a teacha.