I have a simple question of the educators here as a layman.

I was thinking about the education standards for K-12 in the United States and elsewhere its this. How do they figure out what our children and young people need to know and should know in the process?

But as I see it educators set the standards of the norm and I don't see how they get the numbers for say standard things they should know. For example reading literacy I would argue most students by 8th grade can read and in fact well enough to get along but if your talking can they read a book and then figure out what might happen that is over that. Its making a conclusion based on knowledge you have which is more than basic literacy to me its higher order logical thinking. Mathematics is another one most students should be able to do necessary daily use mathematics without an issue by 8th grade ,example calculate the likely tax on a purchase, with pen and paper so they can perform mathematics. Is that algebra or geometry maybe not but how many average jobs need those skills as a class over an applied use of mathematics say in hospitality work or retail.

I just want to know how this is all figured out it seems to me no one is talking to employers on what they need workers to know, or even deciding how many students NEED a college degree so the rest can get job training in secondary school as a focus.

 

You point is quite astute. As a teacher, I would tend to agree with your assertion that, most of the time, students will not use algebra, or higher, in the real world. I does seem rather silly in many circumstances. To arrive at those benchmarks, they backtrack from what is required in college and break it down by year so the student will have the necessary knowledge to gain entrance. No one but the politicians are privy to the actual process of how the benchmarks are determined, but I'm pretty sure it is rather arbitrary.

The whole benchmark system established by the NCLB legislation draws heavy criticism from a majority of teachers for other reasons too. One of the most salient of these is the fact that teachers are often enslaved by "teaching to the test" as it is often called. Many teachers are no longer free to create lessons that will engage their students, they are struggling each year to cram all of the required knowledge into the students to enable them to do well on the state tests. If they do poorly, teachers, schools and districts suffer.

 

There are standards in school. No matter what the standards are (unless you make it 0) there will always be a regular bell curve of students around that standard. Meaning you will have some who meet it, some who exceed it, and some that will fall below it. Just like IQ in that half the population has double digit IQ's. It's not right or wrong, it just is.

We need educated children for sure. My feeling is that we spend too much money, time, and energy trying to get everyone up to some imaginary standard. We should be focusing more on kids who are exceptional. I've seen school districts that spend 90% of their state/federal money on educating special needs kids. If anything it should be 50/50 between special needs and GATE. That, IMHO, is a bigger issue than the macro you are focusing on.

 

More should be spent on GATE kids than on kids with cognitive and behavior problems. I'm glad that schools spend money to take care of children who need it.

My middle son is 6 and my little angel, he says some of the most heart-wrenching things that make me cry and I'm supposed to be big bad tough Marine. He has a learning disability so believe me I know what it feels like to have a child like that.

My point is that we should not give more to challenged kids than we do to GATE children. Our children are falling behind, we need the high achievers to REALLY achieve.

Spending money to mainstream highly developmentally disabled children at the expense of getting your kids to excel is a travesty IMHO.

C.

 

We should not neglect special needs children in favor of children who have already learned or can easily learn. I am surprised that being a parent of a special needs child to hear you say that. The fact is that these educational opportunities could allow special needs children (yours included) to learn and become functioning adults and without this assisstence they would become a burden on society. Yes gifted children should receive attention but not at the expense of special needs children. Gifted children have already mastered the very basic skills that it takes YEARS for special needs children to learn and become functioning contributing members of society. I can agree that the funds should be more evenly distributed but to say we should cut funding from special needs children is just absurd.

Allie

 

My reply is above in red.

 

Actually here are some things you said copied and pasted from your posts on this thread:

"We should be focusing more on kids who are exceptional."

"More should be spent on GATE kids than on kids with cognitive and behavior problems."

"Our children are falling behind, we need the high achievers to REALLY achieve"

"Spending money to mainstream highly developmentally disabled children at the expense of getting your kids to excel is a travesty"

So actually yes you said that we should not spend money on special needs children and instead pour that money into gifted children. This goes deeper than just spending money on special needs kids and its almost like your implying that only the gifted and talented children should receive any kind of educational focus, even the average kids should be pushed aside in favor of the ones you see as genius, future presidents, doctors, and scientists. The implication that average or special needs children could never become a scientist or the next president of our country in my opinion is a travesty since you seem to like that word so much. The fact of the matter is that all children should be given an equal opportunity to excel and learn. You really don't believe that it requires as much effort and resource to educate gifted children as it does disabled children do you? Seriously?

I am not advocating that gifted children should be neglected in favor of special needs children but to say that we should focus more of our energy on gifted children instead of the special needs or even average children is again a travesty since you seem to like that word. I think your view is a travesty and it is people like you who are completely delusional as to what our education system really needs that causes problems for all children not just your favored gifted ones. Oh and another thing if I were your child with special needs I would be appalled at the manner in which you speak of them and at the low expectations you seem to place on children with any kind of need. From every post you have written on this thread it seem that you see special needs children as just problems that should be thrown to the side and never given any chance, why should we bother educating them when they will never become anything.... and the fact of the matter is that with the proper education and treatment these kids can become great people and provide a valuable resource to our society.

 

I was thinking about the education standards for K-12 in the United States and elsewhere its this. How do they figure out what our children and young people need to know and should know in the process?>>



lol. No really. lol
I can't get in this one. I can't even watch.

 

It's one thing to disagree with someone in a civil debate, which I though we were having. It's another thing to insult the way I raise my kids. Absolutely fricking disgusting. You should be ashamed.

I'm done here.

 

Absolutely not ashamed of anything I said.

You can't expect a conversation to remain swayed on your position when you post the things you posted. There are going to be people who agree and disagree with you and state things that you might not want to hear but that is life. You have such a strong opinion about where our educational funding should belong and it happens to be something I do not agree with. If you don't want to feel like people are saying anything about your parenting then don't post things about your children and your personal views. The only thing I find disgusting in this whole thread is the low expectation that you place on children who have special needs including your own.

I'm glad your done as I am as well because I do not wish to get into trouble with the mod's around here for responding and being offended by your personal statements. In the future I will make sure to ignore posts by you and you should do the same with me.

 

Your right Steve he didn't come out and say that but from everything he has written in this thread that is the way I view his position which is why I wrote that it seems that he sees special needs children like that.... this statement is what made me respond the way I did:

"So, If we spend .90 cents of every dollar on special needs and only .10 cents on GATE you don't see that as problem? Shouldn't we at least be spending equal amounts? GATE kids will be scientist, mathematicians, engineers, they will solve problems within our society. It will be a GATE kid who discovers which gene causes retardation. It will be a GATE kid who figures out alternative energy sources, a GATE kid who will be President. Getting special needs to a level is admirable and is something a civilized society should do. Just not at the expense of our best and brightest. Do you want everyone being mediocre? I'd like the geniuses to do their thing, that's all"

To me with this statement it was implied that special needs children could never become anything. I am sorry to have offended you (Steve) and should not have let this person's statements bother me the way they did when in reality it is just type on a screen! Again though I am not ashamed of anything I have written in this thread.

And to anyone else I may have offended by my words in this thread that was not the intention and I am done writing anything on this thread as obviously it is touching a nerve

 

I cannot speak for all state standards, but about 8 years ago, I did a project for a school requiring me to go through all of California's academic standards for all subjects in grades 7-12. Many of the standards were poorly written, age-inappropriate, and covered discreet pieces of information that would be impossible for any normal person to memorize. In short, it was a list of a huge amount of content to cover, as opposed to true learning objectives. Due to the inconsistency of standards across subject areas and grades, it was painfully obvious that the standards had been generated by several different committees that, apparently, had little or no contact with each other. The entire document (hundreds of pages) would have benefitted greatly had someone been employed as a general editor.

With regard to NCLB--which, for some, has become something of a scapegoat for all of education's ills--the problem of teachers being forced to teach to standardized tests was an issue when I was in middle school and high school in the 70s, long predating NCLB.

Now, as to special education funding (both for students needing remediation and for gifted students), I saw firsthand the politics (and corruption) occurring within that sector of public education in California so, out of respect for my colleagues here at Degreeinfo, I will refrain from saying what I think about that.