How can someone say that a graduate degree from a RA, for-profit school is worthless?

In a few recent threads, some members have seemed to imply that the graduate degrees from for-profit schools are not only inferior to their B&M counterparts but they are almost worthless. I no longer attend a for-profit school, so I'm not offended or concerned by this, but I am curious.

It was my understanding that regional accreditors thoroughly review a graduate degree before they will allow one of their constituent schools offer it. If this is the case, how can a RA graduate degree from any school, non-profit or for-profit, be worthless? I'm sure there is a great deal of variance between the quality of RA schools, but shouldn't all of them meet at least minimum quality standards?

 

I agree 100%. If you're the holder of a degree and don't value the learning experience behind it, then you can say it is worthless to you. I do this with my degree earned at the predecessor to Remington College. If, on the other hand, you're making claims as to the general value of a degree or some other credential to employers, please have verifiable stats indicating as much, or just knock it off.

 

I mentored several coworkers at a large Orange County company plus I worked with several more who were working, or had earned, either a BSBA or MBA degree from the University of Phoenix (UoP). All had several years work experience going in, were looking for a degree to better themselves, and competant employees. A factor in their choice of UoP was a local satellite campus (no spending hours in LA/OC area traffic) and company paid tuition. It may be that a UoP graduate with no work experience may not be a good employee (but then I have worked with engineering degree holders from two highly acclaimed West coast universities who were hopeless).

 

ur edukation is more gooder than myne.

 

Because the value of any product isn't determined solely by its quality. It also reflects market factors.

Even a low-quality product can have high value, if there is a shortage.

Similarly, even a high-quality product can be discounted, if there is an oversupply.

Suppose (purely for the sake of argument) that for-profit schools were to open their graduate programs to anyone with a source of funding, and then flooded the market with minimum-quality graduate degrees. If the supply of such degrees exceeded the demand, then their value would drop, potentially to very low levels, even if they were guaranteed to meet a certain minimum standard.

If this happened, you could eventually get to the point where a part-time professor -- even with a doctoral degree -- would have no market leverage to demand anything more than minimum wage for college-level teaching. You would get better compensation in the fast food business.

This scenario is, of course, hypothetical. But in theory, it could happen some day, since for-profit schools maximize their profits by minting as many degrees as possible.

 

Via Wikipedia:

Hyperbole (pronounced /haɪˈpɜrbəliː/ hye-PUR-bə-lee[1]; from ancient Greek ὑπερβολή 'exaggeration') is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.

Hyperboles are exaggerations to create emphasis or effect. As a literary device, hyperbole is often used in poetry, and is frequently encountered in casual speech. An example of hyperbole is: "The bag weighed a ton".[2] Hyperbole helps to make the point that the bag was very heavy although it is not probable that it would actually weigh a ton. On occasion, newspapers and other media use hyperbole when speaking of an accident, to increase the impact of the story. This is more often found in tabloid newspapers, which often exaggerate accounts of events to appeal to a wider audience.

In rhetoric, some opposites of hyperbole are meiosis, litotes, understatement, and bathos (the 'letdown' after a hyperbole in a phrase).

 

The holidays are making everyone goofy.

Either that, or there's entirely too much eggnog being passed around.

To the original question, which the hyperbole definition partly answers:
There's a huge stigma associated with for-profit degrees, partly because they've historically been viewed as "diplomas bought off a matchbook" and partly because of various issues associated with well-known for-profit schools (first UOP, then Kaplan). The reality, though, is that as long as your school is accredited by an RA institution, you should be able to rest knowing their diplomas are as valid as those being granted by any other RA school. Just because there's a lot of scuttlebutt about for-profits schools lately doesn't detract from the fact that RA for-profit schools must endure the rigors of obtaining accreditation and then maintaining that status.

 

This is assuming that admissions = graduation. By the way, wouldn't the same logic apply to non-profits also? Community colleges have open admissions, are their degrees devalued or is it assumed that just because you are admitted you graduate?

 

Of course. But non-profits typically lose money when they educate students; they need taxpayer subsidies, large endowments, or alumni donations to subsidize their operations. So as a general rule, they don't mint degrees as quickly as the for-profits, and so they are less likely to produce an oversupply of graduates.

But in some cases, yes, the non-profits do produce an oversupply. For example, there are probably too many traditional RA English PhDs on the academic job market. Many people suspect that the traditional ABA-accredited law schools are oversupplying JDs in the current legal job market. So the market value of these degrees has fallen, even though the quality has not.

The Original Poster asked about graduate degrees. Community colleges don't issue those.

But in general, community college degrees are probably still a good deal, even if their market value has fallen, because the costs are typically low. The same is not necessarily true for graduate degrees.

 

I am not sure if MichaelOliver is lumping me into the group in question as I have made it no secret that there is an MBA that I have earned from a for-profit school that I do not typically disclose. As with many of these threads, there is a lack of context created with the application of a general, blanket statement on a specific situation.

It really depends on what you are using the degree for. I would certainly list an MBA from a FP on my resume if I were using it to apply for a position in the private sector. With that being said, there would even be limitations in that situation - would anyone really expect an MBA from a FP school to be considered equally in a company where a large number of people possess credentials from top B-schools?

The same holds true for academia - I will list the degree when applying for institutions which are similar (online, FP). I will leave it off the resume when applying for more prestigious schools as I consider it liability when it is viewed by department heads with traditional backgrounds against other candidates with the same backgrounds. My B&M degrees do not pass the scrutiny at many schools because they are not from prestigious enough institutions, so do you think an online degree from a FP would fare any better?

For me, it is not even limited to holding a FP degree, there is a FP school that I teach for that is not listed on my resume for many of the same reasons.

For the vast majority of people, any degree will do as long as it is accredited. I will not comment on the NA v. RA issue as that is mindless circle of point/counterpoint around here. For those wanting to teach in higher education, where and how you got your degree is a consideration no matter how unfair one may think it is. The farther you veer from the traditional educational path in getting your advanced degree, the harder time you will have getting work - pure, simple, and true.

 

Just because a degree is from a regionally accredited school does not mean all RA degrees are the same. When companies hire doctoral holders for specific jobs, several other very important factors regarding the job candidate's education is taken into consideration to make sure they meet their requirements. While I wouldn't say that RA degrees from for-profit schools are worthless, a lot of RA doctoral degrees from online-only schools have limited value, especially, considering what doctoral degrees are originally intended to achieve.

Presently, many who pursue doctoral degrees from online schools have jobs already, and are hoping to do adjunct work upon earning the degree (I say that because I am yet to see a PhD graduate from an online school pursue nothing more than part-time online teaching jobs). Also, considering that many who already have doctoral degrees with teaching experience are taking up majority of new part-time teaching openings that require experience, can't we say that at some point, adjunct teaching jobs will be available in short supply; hence, limited demand and opportunities for future doctoral degree holders ($70k student loan from PhD program but very limited job availability)?

All RA degrees are good. RA doctoral programs from online schools provide limited opportunity for what doctoral degrees are typically used for. Expensive RA degrees from online schools may or may not provide monetary ROI. Expensive RA degrees from for-profit online schools are risky educational investment because of the downward trending nature of it's real value (considering that major employers such as Google, Amazon.com, almost all major oil companies, etc. are refusing to high holders of "online degrees including PhDs").

I always ask myself this question: If I'm going to pay out-of-pocket for a doctoral degree, why should I pay $70k for a PhD in IT from Capella (an online-only school), for example, when I can get a DSc in IS from Dakota State University (a state school with physical campus) for $18k? OK, if getting a PhD rather than DSc becomes the compelling argument (which many in this forum have made mention of), why would a PhD from Nova Southeastern University, which is a B & M school that cost just as high ($64k) as Capella not suffice? I am not saying that RA online degrees are worthless, I'm saying that expensive degrees from online-only schools are worth less than what it costs to earned them, especially, when you start talking about paying $60k or $70k for one.

 

Your comments are worth a million bucks! :smile:

 

Well, this argument pretty much sums up the bottom line. Now keep in mind, both Cyber and I are referring to advanced degrees for the purposes of teaching in the context of utility and ROI. RA is the minimum requirement that allows you to meet the requirements to apply for a teaching job. Where and how you got your degree determines what pile the hiring commitee puts your application in once you get past the first step.

 

I did not intend to lump you in with anyone, I can't even remember who was saying those things and haven't bothered to look. No attack intended. I merely thought it might make an interesting discussion. Thanks for your great comments.

 

No offense taken.

 

So what you are saying is that the quality of the education is not necessarily inferior at a for-profit school, it's the market value of the completed degree that you see as potentially worthless.

 

That makes me feel better...you and I pick up the bill :blackeye:

 

Okydd said that, in this thread, bluntly, and I concurred with some aspects of his assertion. I don't think anyone feels attacked, personally, from these posts. On the other hand, I must say that, you are good at raising thought-provoking questions. In addition to being good for Degree Info because the substance of the issues raised, it also educates participants and "lurkers" alike, on issues pertaining to their educational investment. Michael, have you forgot that you "jumped ship" from NCU to Liberty? I'll admit, I left NCU and TUI because of what I learned here. I'm happy with those decisions, and the fact that I found DI when I did, even though, finding it in 2003 would have saved me lots of money during my undergrad @ DeVry. Again, your postings are held in high regards.

 

I agree, this is just basic knowledge and applies to RA B&M schools also. I grew up in NJ and Jersey City State College was the school to go to if you could not get into Seton Hall, Fairleigh Dickinson University, Rutgers, or New Jersey Institute of Technology. There is a pecking order in everything in life.

 

Mind if I ask where you landed when you jumped ship? Was it for a masters or PhD program?