Dropout Factories, America's Worst Colleges

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by warguns, Aug 28, 2010.

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  1. warguns

    warguns Member

    Dropput Factories, America's Worst Colleges

    This article doesn't deal with distance leaning per se but I know it will be of interest to forum readers.

    Worst College Rankings: Washington Monthly's 2010 Dropout Factories

    The article was the the subject of a column in the Washington Post, which gave it wider attention

    Class Struggle - America's worst colleges

    Behind the statistics, the authors of the article take a more detailed look at Chicago State University

    Lots of thoughtful and often impassioned comments to both the article and the column
     
  2. Cauble_TXSG

    Cauble_TXSG Member

    Well the WM rankings of colleges with the highest dropout rate is interesting. I can only speak for the schools in Texas, but the entire list except for Sul Ross are schools that are primarily minority student schools.
     
  3. Cyber

    Cyber New Member

    This is a clear attempt by Washington Post, the parent company of Kaplan University, which is currently embroiled in fraudulent and unethical admission and financial aid practices, to take a swipe at traditional state universities. Taking a closer look, majority of the schools are located in urban areas and they serve low-income students. As someone who lives very close to Chicago State, most students at the school that I know use it to transfer to better schools like U of Illinois, IIT, Depaul, Northwestern etc. Others who intend to graduate there are adult/working students, and getting into their graduate programs is not easy as the requirements in line with other traditional schools, and certainly way better than Kaplan University. This article is really nothing to write home about.
     
  4. CalDog

    CalDog New Member

    Washington Monthly (a monthly non-profit magazine) and Washington Post (a daily for-profit newspaper) are not connected (except that they both happen to be based in Washington). The ranking was prepared by the Monthly, not the Post. The Post certainly covered the Monthly's rankings, but so did the rest of the media; they are among the best-known college rankings (along with those Forbes and US News & World Report).

    The Monthly is well aware that their "worst colleges" primarily serve low-income and minority students. The point of their "worst colleges" list is to make the case that such students deserve better:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2010
  5. warguns

    warguns Member

    Dropout Factories: America's Worst Colleges

    First, note that the article was in Washington Monthly

    The Washington Monthly

    which is not affiliated with the Washington Post. There was a column in the Post that commented on the article.

    Second, the Washington Post is one of the most respected newspapers in the world. The idea that their content would be influenced by their connection with Kaplan is ludicrous.

    Third, if, as you claim, most students at a college on this list, transfer to a "better college", that, in itself, is an indictment of the originating college. Students who are pleased with the education they are receiving do not usually transfer.

    Fourth, contrary to what you state the majority of the schools are NOT located in urban areas

    Here's the non-urban location of 27 of the drop-out factories

    Marietta, Georgia; Alpine, TX; Silver City, New Mexico; Fairfield, AL; Claremore, OK; Muskogee, OK; Brownsville, Texas; Pocatello, Idaho; Bryn Athyn, PA; Great Falls, MT; Ketchen, Alaska; Provo, UT; Henderson, Nevada; Lawrenceville, VA; Beckley, WV; Parkersburg, WV; Macon, GA; Grand Rapids, MI; Toppenish, WA; Clinton Twp, MI; Kyle, SD; Hawkins, TX; Nyack, NY; Raleigh, NC; Auburn Hills, MI; Whiting, IN; Bellevue, Nebraska;

    Fifth, if as you say, the goal was to "to take a swipe at traditional state universities" they did so in an odd way, since even a casual view of the list of the 50 colleges indicates that a majority are private, not public colleges.

    Finally, permit me to point out that the data permit 6 years for graduation, which, at least in part, compensates for the fact that poor students may have to temporally leave to earn more money.
     
  6. joel66

    joel66 New Member

    I noticed some of the schools listed in areas of very high unemployment rates. Especially the schools in Michigan that had a lot of automotive plant closures. I can see students moving onto state schools and other colleges that is less expensive, or flat out can't afford it due to less income.
     
  7. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    I wish I could agree with you, but after the stunt they pulled with the Strayer op-ed, I can't.

    -=Steve=-
     
  8. Kizmet

    Kizmet Moderator

    I have no interest in dragging this thread off-topic but I'd like to point out another sort of example of this phenomenon. Where I live it's common knowledge that the Boston Globe, the preeminent newspaper for the New England area (#15 in the country) is a minority owner of the Boston Red Sox. So how much criticism of the Sox does the Globe allow? Everybody says, "It's not an issue." but is that really believeable? Let's add another layer of complexity. Who owns the Boston Globe? The New York Times.
    Those damn Yankees! ;)

    I bring this up simply to add my own opinion that it's at least reasonable to question the possibility of conflict of interest in these situations.
     
  9. warguns

    warguns Member

    washington post



    I don't understand your complaint. It was an op-ed. It's not expected to be objective and it's usually written by an interested party.The author was clearly identified.

    An op-ed, abbreviated from opposite the editorial page[1] (though often mistaken for opinion-editorial), is a newspaper article that expresses the opinions of a named writer who is usually unaffiliated with the newspaper's editorial board. These are different from editorials, which are usually unsigned and written by editorial board members.

    (M)ajor newspapers such as The New York Times and The Washington Post began including more openly subjective and opinionated journalism, adding more columns and growing their op-ed pages.

    Op-ed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  10. cookderosa

    cookderosa Resident Chef

    It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that the majority of students qualify for a pell grant...ding ding ding....free money people. This is not new, this is a very common - very often used- scam on the system.
    1. Apply to college / fill out the financial aid application
    2. Be awarded $5500 free pell and/or student loan
    3. Enroll in classes
    4. Cash the check.

    Attend classes? Uh no, I've changed my mind, thanks anyway.

    On another note, did you guys see WNMU on there? <gasp> that's a favorite around here!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2010
  11. lawrenceq

    lawrenceq Member

    I've seen this happen a million times. At the JUCO I attended you could tell when checks were released by the amount of traffic. ;)

    Getting to class became a lot easier once the fakers got their checks.
     
  12. Tireman 44444

    Tireman 44444 Well-Known Member

    \


    Not the University of Houston-Downtown....
     
  13. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    One of DL's dirty little secrets is the extremely high drop-out rates in many DL programs, measured by conventional B&M standards. Nobody likes to talk about that. But if low graduation rates makes a program bad, then most DL programs are indisputably bad programs, among America's worst higher-education.

    Some of the rural schools serve low-income populations as well. There are a number of Indian tribal colleges on the list. Heritage College in Toppinish WA isn't a tribal college, but it's located on the Yakima Indian Reservation.

    I think that a number of these schools exist to provide eductional opportunities to traditionally underserved populations. These schools have relatively open admissions and get many students whose secondary schooling was less than ideal. Even worse, many of these students are low-income, many already have children and dependnts to support, and many have to perform exhausting low-end jobs during the day. It's not easy for these kind of students to flourish in a demanding university environment and doubtless many of them do drop out without completing their programs.

    While that may be evidence of insufficient financial support, psychological hand-holding and remedial tutoring in things like math and English, it isn't necessarily evidence of weak academics in university classes. It might be evidence of precisely the opposite. These schools can't be accused of awarding degrees to all comers, whatever the student's performance.

    It's an issue of educational philosophy, I guess. On one hand, there's USNews' favored 'top tier' model, featuring high initial admissions selectivity, then very low attrition rates. On the other hand, there's the 'fourth-tier' model that features low admissions selectivity (or open admissions) and then higher subsequent attrition rates. Both models might have pretty much the same yield at the end. The 'top tier' model generates a very stimulating student body who typically study in close proximity, full-time, on-campus. The 'fourth tier' model is more apt to offer part-time programs, night classes, and lots of DL to countless students that the elite model simply turns away and has no interest in serving.

    Right, I think that there's a lot of that. Any credible analysis of student retention rates will have to differentiate between different reasons for leaving.

    I saw Idaho State University on the list. I'm vaguely familiar with that one, as one of my friends did his MA there. The thing with Idaho State is that it offers many associates and certificate level programs and kind of operates as if a community college was folded into the university. So many ISU students pursuing things like EMT certificates and associate's level RN certifications didn't have a degree objective when they originally entered the school.

    Again taking Idaho State University as my example, it isn't really comparable to a Univ. of California campus, I guess. It doesn't have the same intense focus on doctoral-level education and it isn't as selective. But I think that it compares reasonably well with one of the better California State Universities, with a few doctoral programs added on for interest.

    Take the ISU PhD program in Biology. (It's definitely not open admissions.) Though it's working on broadening out to things like molecular biology, the department's real strength has always been ecology. They have about 50 graduate students and 16 professors specializing in ecology. There's an active research program, lots of field work in rugged Idaho, and close association with the Idaho Museum of Natural History, located on campus. While generally speaking it probably isn't one of America's best ecology graduate programs, it certainly isn't the worst either. And when it come to Idaho ecology specifically, it probably is among the best.

    Somebody (Mark Twain?) once said, "There's lies, damned lies, and statistics". I'm reminded of that.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2010
  14. NorCal

    NorCal Active Member

    I am surprised that UoP is not listed.

    Interesting . . .
     
  15. rcreighton

    rcreighton New Member

  16. Bruboy

    Bruboy New Member

  17. Dave Wagner

    Dave Wagner Active Member

    It is highly appropriate bring up conflict of interest between the ownership of businesses and publications. The truth is that editors rarely allow investigative journalism that would lead to criminal investigation of related owners or investors. Why? Because that is how you get fired for some other unrelated mistake that has nothing to do with the recent journalistic focus... In sum, the "Chinese wall" between publishing and journalism really doesn't exist, much.
     
  18. Bruboy

    Bruboy New Member

    The data seems to come from here IPEDS Data Center

    The graduation rate data applies to "full-time, first-time, degree/certificate-seeking undergraduates"
     
  19. SteveFoerster

    SteveFoerster Resident Gadfly Staff Member

    Yes thanks, I know what an op-ed is. My point is that two days after the ombudsman trumpets the evenhanded way they're handling this situation, that's the op-ed they decide is best to publish? That's hardly the sort of decision making one would expect from "one of the most respected newspapers in the world".

    -=Steve=-
     
  20. mcjon77

    mcjon77 Member

    I also live near Chicago State.
    I used to work at Chicago State.
    I've taken classes at Chicago State.

    NOTHING in that article seems inaccurate to me. If anything, they understated some of the problems.
     

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