Law Degree Quandry

Hello,

I have very recently discovered these very useful forums. I have searched through many threads and have learned a lot. I would like to test what I have learned. Perhaps someone here is in the mood to be a sounding board and offer some coaching on my reasoning detailed below?

Some background....I have a BA from a traditional B&M institution (public, in Canada). I have a MScIS from U of Phoenix (online) and a MA in I/O Psychology from Chicago School of Professional Psychology (online).

My wife has a LLB from the U of London (external) although she attended for the final two years. She has a MA from Arizona State (B&M) and a LLM from Golden Gate (B&M).

We live in California and have no kids so I have TONS of spare time to devote to whatever I put my mind to.

Throughout these years as I financed my wife's education while I worked, I always thought that, given the chance, I would have loved to complete a law degree. I work in IT and I would like some kind of career shift towards something dealing with evaluating and creating contracts.

I am also not pleased with the reputation that some of my schools have. My wife tells me that she can see that I am not happy. She tells me "I have skirted around the issue for years, gathering other degrees and multiple IT certifications - yet I never took the plunge into doing what I was meant to do". You should know that when my wife did her degrees, I was right along there with her so I already have a great foundation.

At one point (over 5 years ago) I actually went and wrote the LSAT. I did not study even for 5 minutes for it and I scored a 139. I am sure that had I prepared I could have easily scored in the 160's or higher.

When I was a young boy I used to tell people that I was going to be a lawyer. However, my grades from my BA dashed that hope and I have every excuse in the book for those grades but I won't bore anyone with them here. Since those days I earned a 3.7 GPA from UoP and a 4.0 from TCS. It's been 20 years since my BA, I am sure I could do it now.

My wife is strongly recommending that I enroll at UoL external. I am leaning that route as well. I have read on these boards that the exams can be tough, but my wife told me that it is no problem and that I will sail through it. She has seen my latest course work and says that my MA was harder than her LLB. She also can coach me and tell me basically everything to watch out for on the exams.

The program would take 3 years. It would be prestigious. If I wanted to practice in California later, I could always take an LLM and write the CA bar. That is what my wife did - exactly. So I know that can work. However, like I mentioned, I am not explicitly planning to work as a lawyer, although I would like that option open to me should I change my mind. I also have this dream of one day working in Europe and a law degree from UoL may make that more of a reality one day.

However, I do wonder if I should instead enroll at NWCULAW? That would take me 4 years. No requirement for LSAT. Must take baby bar. Approx same cost as UoL (they have a special going on right now actually). Only good for CA Bar. No name recognition. But, and this might be a big but, if I decide not to work in law, and remain in California, would it not look better to see the words "JD" on my resume compared to "LLB"? Or is the name recognition from UoL enough to counter that? A lot of employers don't really know what a LLB is these days.

I believe that in today's world of outsourcing that there is a nice niche for someone with an IT and Legal background. I am somewhat specialized in this field already and I wrote my last graduate thesis on the subject. At one point I thought I could just get a LLM from UoL and specialize more in it but, like I said, I would like the option open to me to actually work as a lawyer (or at least be on a trajectory to make it happen with an additional year to get an LLM in CA). I mentioned it already but I would love to work in Europe. I have lived and worked in France, Germany and Romania over the years and I would love to go back.

I currently manage a team of 60 (70% offshore) providing all application support and development services for a a group within a major fortune 100 company. I would not give up my day job for anything. My retirment planning is just too important to me.

Before I die I would like to have a law degree and the more prestigious the better. I would like to be able to say that I am also a lawyer. I would like to be able to pick up an outsourcing contract and REALLY review it and have people recognize my credentials to provide that kind of service. There may be other things I might consider doing as I progress through the program.

So now I am wondering, does this make sense to "take the plunge"? Is my reasoning sound for leaning towards UoL? Is it really possible to work full time and complete this degree in 3 years? Should I instead go for something local and do a DL JD?

OR, knowing what you know about me, is there something else that you might recommend that I have not thought of?

 

I'd recommend getting a JD rather than the UoL LLB if you really want to get a law degree. If you want to work in Europe again, your IT experience is your ticket, not a career in law or a law degree.

 

I'd consider night school law school with a school that is ABA accredited. Even Dean Clancey (NWCU) will recommend that you do this if at all possible. NWCU is a good choice if the only option to get a law degree is distance learning. However you'll have more options available to you if you go the ABA route.

 

A JD from NWCU or an LLB from UoL may improve your contract-reviewing skills. However, neither degree, by itself, would allow you to state that "I am also a lawyer". You cannot claim the titles of "lawyer" or "attorney" unless you have passed your state's bar exam.

If you earn the degree without taking the bar, then you could state "I have a law degree". However, that is not the same thing as stating "I am a lawyer".

The job market for new law school graduates is very tough right now. And all of the unemployed or underemployed graduates of traditional, ABA-accredited law schools are desperate for work, because they typically have major (often $100,000+) student loan debt, which they are obliged to start repaying. So the competition for law jobs, or even for non-law jobs with some legal aspects, is stiff. And law school enrollments are still growing.

 

This is solid advice. It's similar to the situation with new doctors and many others in professions that were traditionally thought to be the best and highest paying. There are just too many people who are trying to do it. As many on this board know, I just dropped out of a PhD program for similar reasons. Questionable prospects for making the investment back, even more questionable for a good ROI.

Sorry to pour cold water on your dreams, I know how that feels...not good! If you have the extra money and you just want the achievement in your life, then there is no argument against that. Go for it. However, if you need a return on your investment, you should be extremely wary.

 

Not to argue your facts but I've been told by many people in law and outside of law that with a law degree the world is your oyster. Even if you choose to not practice law the degree itself allows you utilize it for work outside of law. I have my serious doubts about this, but I have heard this time and time again yet no one can ever tell me specific jobs that it would benefit someone over a master's degree. I have found plenty of websites explaining it like these --> http://blogs.findlaw.com/greedy_associates/2009/10/99-things-to-do-with-your-jd-besides-practice-law.html but most of these jobs could be had by simply being a charismatic achiever.

My suggestion to the OP would be if you want to practice law whether it be in the U.S. or not go ahead and invest in the JD at a B&M. What's the point if you have serious limitations with the other ones?

 

Agreed, not to even mention the different Common law/Civil law approaches varying from one European state to another.

 

Unless I misunderstand what you are saying, it sounds like we agree.

 

Yes, I was just being a bit sarcastic. I keep hearing about the utility, and I've asked about it to anyone who will listen. I believe I even asked about it here once before. I have around 8 friends who are succesful attorney's and they keep trying to get me to go to law school as well. Even as early as the beginning of this year I considered it (hell I'm still considering it). They keep telling me that the degree has such utility yet they are all still practicing attorney's. If it has such utility why can't anyone give me a solid answer as to what it can be used for? More specifically, why would you need a law degree to go after some of the jobs listed in my previous link? I believe the law degree utility myth is just that. Also why would a law degree have more utility than a master's degree (another myth I always hear)?

The OP sounds like he's very serious about doing it but in my opinion if you are going the law route then go for the gold and get the JD. That way if you do want to practice law here in the states at least you have the option.

 

This is a widespread belief, and probably explains why law school applications and enrollments are currently at or near all-time highs.

But it hasn't worked out that way for recent law school classes. The distribution of starting full-time salaries for 2008 and 2009 law school graduates is graphed here. The distribution is obviously bimodal. The narrow peak on the right represents the graduates who land the coveted high-paying jobs, typically with big national law firms, at starting salaries around $160,000. But more graduates landed in the broader peak on the left, centered at around $50,000.

The left-hand peak, with salaries in the $35,000 - $65,000 range, may not seem so bad. But remember that it takes a substantial investment of time (three years), lost wages, and tuition (usually $100,000+ for an ABA degree) in order to get there. So a $50,000 salary isn't necessarily a worthwhile ROI. Many of the people in this situation probably could have earned similar salaries without attending law school -- and without incurring six figures in student loan debt.

Also, notice that these graphs only address the graduates who found full-time employment. They don't reflect the 25% of graduates who could only find temporary jobs (most often performing document reviews), typically at low hourly rates with no benefits.

 

One other point: the peak on the right predominantly includes graduates of the country's highest-ranked schools, say the top 10 to 20 as rated by US News.

If there was a separate graph for graduates of non-top-ranked law schools, the peak of the right would be significantly smaller, and the peak on the left would be significantly larger.

 

Thanks for posting this. It's certainly an eye opener to see this in print form rather than simply being told. It appears that the cold truth is that unless you really want to practice law or you are doing it for personal enrichment it might be better to get a post grad degree instead. I believe that's why I seldom get concrete answers when I ask about the law degree utility outside of practicing law.

I hope this doesn't dissuade the OP, but it's something I've thought about since I started my journey to completing my undergrad degree. Like the OP I love the idea of becoming an attorney but I wouldn't want the typical courtroom setting. Looking at it in type it doesn't make a whole lot of sense but to me I also have a lot of personal reasons behind it. However, those persoanl reason have not won out against the facts like you just posted (at least for now).

Again to the OP, If this is something you've always considered I say go for it. I don't know that anything I've posted in this thread is terribly helpful. I just say that if you plan on going for it then go all the way to a B&M JD. It just gives you many more options for practice within the states. Unless you are resigned to staying in California then I say go for the DL JD. Good luck with your journeys and please let us know what choice you make.

 

For those who find it difficult to believe that the market for legal services is becoming saturated, check out this link. Yes, it's for real.

Be sure to go to the bottom of the page, turn up your computer speakers, and enjoy their snappy radio ad.

 

Just one more thing. A lot of folks think that becoming an attorney is a pathway to riches. In the majority of people that practice law this is simply not the case (reference above). An attorney that does not make partner in a major firm will work twice as much and harder than a CEO or COO and still not make the kind of money that the executives make. If you truly love the law don't let anything stand in your way. Just know what you're getting yourself into.

 

Another thing, a lot of what attorneys do is very tedious (reviewing contracts definitely fits the bill) and the good money is in litigation, not pushing paper. Paper pushing like reviewing contracts is also something that can be offshored. Someone who has a great career in IT should not try this career change.

 

There is a lot of truth in what everyone is posting. It's a really though market out there right now. Even some of those from the top schools aren't getting jobs (or at least the jobs they want). Personally, it's hard for me to see someone getting a ROI on getting a JD without becoming an attorney. I think that a JD has some utility in other jobs but when compared to a Master's specifically in that area, I would probably hire the person with the Master's.

 

Well, I'll wade in. Where might you want to practice law? California? Then the JD. Some other common law jurisdiction (Belize, Jamaica, England, etc.), then the LL.B.

 

Hi sideman,

I couldn't help noticing that you are a certified paralegal. What did you use to help you studying for the exam? Did you find the exam difficult?

 

I see that the OP hasn't responded to our suggestions. I sincerely hope that he didn't feel like we were trying to suggest he not attend. I have been dealing with the same issues he has for some time with law school.

The thought of it sounds great on the surface but it just seems like a lot of time and money to spend if you dont want to ever set foot in a courtroom. I love law but if there isn't a way to really use it outside of actually practicing then I don't see the ROI being that great.


Notseen, good luck with your journey and I hope you return to let us know what decision you make.

 

Hi Sshuang,

I took a review course with a local chapter of paralegals. Also, I read the law in a nutshell series for each topic to be covered. The test was two days in length and all multiple choice. The test was fair and the review really helped.