California Coast's Redesigned Website

www.calcoast.edu is the URL which hosts a totally redesigned website--it actually looks nice. The website states that CCU is meeting the educational goals of students in "ALL 50 STATES." I would be curious to know how CCU is meeting this objective in Oregon--given the fact that degrees from CCU are not considered legal for use in that state.

Russell

 

My guess is because it just doesn't matter. I suspect veeeerrrry few of CCU's potential customers know about the ODA. I doubt seriously being listed by the ODA has cost CCU--or any other school listed--any business. Who even knows about it? (How many of us around here found out about it through means other than degreeinfo.com and/or a.e.d.? Even the articles in the Chronicle couldn't cause enough buzz in the non-academic world to matter.

I truly don't think the ODA could enforce their point of view, anyway. I'm sure plenty of the schools on their list are doing business with residents of Oregon. I just don't see how a state could ban a legal business operating with full licensure/approval from another state.

Along those same lines, I wonder if the Texas judgment against MIGS is enforceable? MIGS isn't licensed in that state (although it was their claim they were doing business there). Hawaii has won judgments against schools it did license, but noted they could not collect.

As for CCU being less-than-cooperative, I don't blame them. The last thing they need is to ask for Oregon's permission and then have it denied. Besides, what's next? All DL schools having to get approval by every state?

All in all, it is "little" ado about nothing.

Rich Douglas

 

Personally, I do hope she is able to achieve her objective. If I had a CCU Ph.D., even though it may be much ado over nothing, I would not want my alma mater on some ODA list of illegal schools. IMHO, CCU does not meet the criteria of a degree mill.

Russell

 

Maybe not a degree mill, but certainly Doctorate Light. At least based on the catalog and such they mailed me, few are going to confuse this with an RA doctorate.


Tom Nixon
----
Co-author,Bears' Guide to the Best Education Degrees by Distance Learning

 

I agree, Tom, in regard to Doctorate Light. My statement was not intended to equate a CCU Ph.D. with RA. Only that someone who could use the degree legitimately (e.g., California psychologists), I would think they would prefer that CCU not be listed on the ODA website.

Russell

 

Oregon took a good idea (trying to stop the use of mill degrees) and overregulated. Someday Oregon will face a First Amendment, freedom of speech & association challenge to its regulation from a legitimate non-RA degree holder, and my bet is that it will lose.

 

I'm not an attorney, so all the following is from a layman. So get out your grain of salt.

Oregon has the undisputed right to regulate education inside Oregon. So couldn't one argue that the same powers extend to schools located outside Oregon that offer education inside Oregon? The theory being that Oregon's educational powers concern the provision of education to the state's citizens, not merely the regulation of schools located within its boundaries. Oregon already has the right to regulate Oregon branch campuses of out of state schools.

And could one argue this as a consumer protection issue? Oregon has the right to enact regulations concerning products sold within the state. For example, the state could outlaw the sales of fireworks. It obviously wouldn't be a defense to argue that you had bought the fireworks out of state and were merely reselling them in Oregon.

So if Oregon has the legal right to protect its citizens from the unscrupulous use of fraudulent degrees by preventing local schools from selling false certifications of expertise, doesn't it have the right to prevent people from acquiring them out of state and then reselling them in Oregon to unsuspecting employers, clients and patients who believe that they are purchasing certified expertise?

 

I recently spoke with an attorney who represents an association of California private postsecondary schools. He had spoken with someone in the Oregon Attorney General's office who admitted the law is likely unconstitutional.

But the Deputy Attorney General made it clear that if the law was overturned by the Courts, it would simply be reenacted with slightly different language. And, of course, with appeals the Court procedure could take years. Since the State has virtually unlimited resources and the schools don't, it was decided no legal action to challenge the law would be made at this time.

 

I would disagree. It is the states right to regulate anything that takes place entirely within it's state.

Anything that crosses state-lines (distance ed, mail order purchases, etc.) becomes a federal issue that is regulated by the federal government. (DOE, FTC, etc.)

If it didn't work this way we'd have every state trying to regulate things from every other state. It would be a real mess.

 

Wasn't this one of the reasons for replacing the Articles of Confereration with the Constitution ???

Regards,
Dick

 

Actually, my prediction is that the challenge won't come from one of the currently established schools, but rather from an individual who possesses one of the verboten degrees and who resides in Oregon. Another possibility is that some brand-new, legitimate school that wants to open in Oregon will be prohibited from doing so under the regulation and thus file a challenge to it. In this sense, Oregon's regulation also may be viewed as some type of unlawful restraint of trade. In short, there may be ways to legitimately restrict the use of illegitimate, truly mill degrees, but Oregon's approach is overreaching. It's an example of good intentions leading to very poorly crafted legislation.

 

You may be right. But if you are, then the internet and the rise of e-commerce are going to end up federalizing a whole lot of existing state and local control over what happens inside their own jurisdictions.

I'm still not at all convinced of this one, since I still think that Oregon may have a right to define what constitutes a legal degree in Oregon.

I'm not suggesting that Oregon try to raid unrecognized out of state on-line programs that offer degrees to Oregonians. Its courts lack the jurisdiction.

I am suggesting that if Oregon can declare unrecognized Oregon schools illegal, then it could plausibly argue that means that the degrees that those illegal schools offer are not recognized as being legal degrees, either.

And if you accept that step of moving from ruling on the legality of the school to the legality of the qualifications, then it would seem possible to make the same judgements about qualifications issued by schools outside Oregon to those inside.

Oregon could argue that while it is not illegal for the out-of-state school to operate (the school's home state would have to decide that), the degrees that it grants are not recognized by Oregon as being legal degrees inside Oregon.

The analogy again would be fireworks. If firecrackers are legal in California but illegal in Oregon, buying your firecrackers by mail order from a California supplier does not allow you to ignore the Oregon law.

I should say that I agree with David Yamada that the Oregon law might not survive challenge. My biggest problem is that in outlawing "use" of the degrees, it is too vague. What if you have a degree mill degree and you just happen to mention it at a party? What if somebody there thinks its cool? What if he or she later offers you a job? So yeah, there are free speech and free association issues.

But drawn more clearly, where the illegal uses are better defined, it may work. And if the degrees themselves were declared to not be legal degrees in Oregon, even without any enforcement mechanism aimed at those using them, you would give employers, customers and clients some pretty good ammunition to use in Oregon legal cases where the degree holder's qualifications became an issue.

Finally I'll say once again that I'm not an attorney. I'm just trying to invent arguments that could be used to defend the Oregon law.

 

Just to stir the pot a bit....

In how many states of the Union is {insert innocent sex act here} still on the books as being illegal?

How much you want to bet that crimes of passion are happening daily in those states?


------------------
Quinn

 

What does an innocent sex act have to do with a crime of passion?

Innocent sex = Crime?

I'm not sure how this equates with a state-approved degree.

Russell

 

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Felatio, than are dreamt of in our doctorate of philosophy." -- Dr. Bard

Seriously, though ... my point was that in some states there are laws on the books that, upon analysis, suck.



------------------
Quinn

 

There are indeed laws which have no contemporary relevance. I came across a list of such laws some time back, which had been printed for its utility as humor. It contained things like spitting on the sidewalk--$50 fine. Of course, that isn't very sanitary is it?

 

Keep in mind ... that was back when $50.00 meant something.


------------------
Quinn

 

It still means something in some circles, Quinn. There are institutions of higher learning where one can still earn a degree for $50--and a Ph.D. for $199.

Russell

 

When I went through the Police Academy in 1988, it was still illegal in Massachusetts (typically one of the most liberal states in the US) for people of the opposite sex to live together. It was called "co-habitation", and it was a felony. I saved my law books from the Academy to show people, because they don't believe me.

I'll even do you one better. It was also, until fairly recently, a Boston City Ordinance that any black person walking abroad at night had to carry an illuminated red lantern with them.

Thankfully, both these (and other foolish laws) have been repealed, although it is still illegal to be a vagrant or buy beer on Sundays. I can live with the former, but the latter is a killer during football season!


Bruce