Is DL really as good as B&M?

Discussion in 'General Distance Learning Discussions' started by MichaelOliver, Mar 5, 2010.

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  1. Is a RA, DL education really as good as an education at a B&M campus? I think it is, with some exceptions, so I'm not looking for reassurance. I am merely interested in what the members of this board might have to say.

    I ask in light of comments posted about the following: DL being easier than B&M, grade inflation by adjuncts, lack of face-to-face interaction and the opportunities to cheat.

    Whats your opinion?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2010
  2. daniellevine

    daniellevine New Member

    This question has a lot of angles. Which diploma will carry the most reputation? Usually brick and mortar. Of course, you can find a good DL program from a reputable school that does not seem like an "online" degree.

    For me, DL works much better. I get fidgety in class and I get annoyed by professors. I find myself scribbling on papers. Additionally, at a BM school, you have to deal with the traffic and the rushed schedule. I'm sure that many people will point out the advantages and disadvantages to both, but here are a couple of misnomers I want to point out:

    You retain information better if you sit in class.

    I have found this to be far from the truth. Rather, I zone out in class and then just cram the night before an exam. I wouldn't say I've retained information any better in a classroom than studying for CLEPs and DSSTs. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've retained less.

    The socratic method is the superior way of learning, and you can't do that online.

    True, you can't do that online. Then again, I've found the socratic method to be annoying and counter-productiive. Wow, Jane has a different opinion than Dick. Let's discuss. Jane, tell us why you think this. Dick, what do you think about that? Hours go by because people just like to hear themselves talk. It's usually the malcontents with attention issues that just like to argue and talk about themselves. We know the issues; we know that people have different assumptions, experiences, and values.

    You can cheat online.

    Yes, that's true. And you can't cheat in a classroom?

    Online learning is easier than BM learning.

    Yes, exactly. That's exactly why I do it. Let's not mistake "easier" with "learning less." I thought the whole idea of education is to find method that comes most naturally to each student. I learn easier on my own schedule, sitting at my laptop, typing stuff into google. At the end of the semester, I take an exam that is an exact match to people that learned in the classroom. I spent less time studying, yet I learned easier and faster. That's why I prefer this way.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2010
  3. Yes, I agree. The Dick and the Jane in those classes are often idiots, anyway. (My apologies to anyone who actually has those names :) ) I get sick of listening to the less than erudite opinions of classmates. I learn much more in DL.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2010
  4. lawrenceq

    lawrenceq Member

    Is DL as good as B&M?

    I think so! I feel DL makes me work harder. I prefer attending classes face-to-face but my work schedule crazy.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2010
  5. bazonkers

    bazonkers New Member

    In my DL program, I am learning the material. At the end of the program, I will be have in-depth knowledge of all the major important aspects of American history. Is it easier than a B&M program? I don't know, I never took one to compare but I know for me, I'm satisfied because I am learning what I expected to learn and that is the whole purpose of the earning the degree.

    Would I have gotten more networking opportunities etc. with a face to face B&M program? Sure. But in reality, it was this DL program or nothing. Face to face B&M wasn't an option. So for me, this DL program is better than a B&M program because soon I will have it finished, something I'd never be able to do otherwise.
     
  6. I'm not so sure about networking opportunities, anyway. Sure they are out there in a classroom, but I have not seen much of that sort of thing happening in any B&M class I have taken. People do what is expected for the class and then get out of there.
     
  7. BillDayson

    BillDayson New Member

    I think that on-campus education is clearly superior when it comes to laboratories and hands-on practical experiences. Sucbjects like the laboratory sciences and art studios don't really lend themseves to the DL format.

    But I do think that distance learning can probably deliver lecture and discussion classes as well as in-classroom instruction. DL probably works best and is most suitable for majors where all of one's classes are lecture sections, seminars and the like, where the B&M medium is already spoken and written communication.

    (My own experience is that I like threaded written online discussion a lot better than in-person classroom discussion, since it allows me to think about what I'm going to say and then state it more fully, and not just pop-off with twenty-words-or-less off the top of my head all the time. I can even verify my facts before I reply and/or provide links to supporting information.)

    Moving lectures and discussions to telecommunications likely will degrade the full-immersion aspect that full-time students enjoy at the better universities. I'm thinking about being engaged with your major subject and its culture constantly, even outside of class, where your social circle consists of professors and fellow students in your subject and where out-of-class discussons can go on late into the night. But that's more of a full-time/part-time distinction than a DL/B&M distinction, I guess. Already being employed in the field of the DL degree will likely take care of that concern for many students anyway.

    Inadaquate library resources can be a concern with DL, particularly for students in remote locations. That's especially true for the ever-popular doctoral programs which might easily necessitate access to well-stocked research libraries. In some subjects, online access to the periodical literature is already as good or even better than what one physically finds in libraries. But coverage of books is still spotty, at best.

    I guess that I'll finish by saying that while I think that DL programs can be as good as B&M programs in some cases, for some students in some majors, I don't think that actual implementation has always lived up to the promise. Too many DL programs are low-end open-admissions things, taught by poorly-qualified adjuncts, with corners cut to appeal to a continuing education student market in search of fast-and-easy. It's difficult to think of very many DL programs that compete with the "top-tier" liberal-arts colleges and research universities in terms of admissions selectivity, total educational experience and scholarly productivity. I don't think that it's impossible though, but it isn't really here yet on a large scale.
     
  8. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    for DL to be credible is has to have the same quality controls that B&M has. My problem with some DL programs is that they have changed the learning paradigm just to increase enrollments and make more money. I believe Australians and British have it right, they use the same paradigm for both B&M and distance learning so in the UK or Australia nobody cares how you earned your degree.

    In the US the the credibility suffers because the abuse of low payed adjuncts to deliver courses, replacement of proctored exams by more user friendly online discussions or online non proctored exams, shorter periods of time (semester long courses become now 8 weeks or even 6 week courses), etc. In the US the DL has been seen as a gold mine and revenue stream generators for many schools so they abuse the model to maximize income at the expense of quality.

    If a student is able to pass the same final exam regardless if the course is taken online or face to face, I don't see any credibility issue. Credibility starts to diminish when schools start claiming that you can finish programs faster, without exams and now even doctorates without dissertation as long as you flash your credit card to them. I don't buy that a student can learn the same just by following online discussions and completing some canned assignments, we are saying that exams are pointless and we can just learn as much by completing some essays and posting online discussions. I think employers have all the right to question the new methods practiced to increase income and attract students that hate the traditional paradigm of proctored exams.
     
  9. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    Yes but with online this seems to be easier. There have been some discussions about some Chinese services that offer taking online courses for you. Let's say I need an MBA, I can register as an online student and just pay a Chinese guy to take my courses for a reasonable price. You can claim that you can do the same in a face to face class room but most likely you would need to pay 10 times more just to make up for the commuting time and difference in cost of living between China and the US.

    I have seen services that offer you to write dissertations. As some PhDs can be completed 100% online, I can easily pay 10K to have a guy in Russia or China to write my dissertation and then get a PhD that can help me to land more adjunct work and pay off the 10K in less than a year. Who needs a PhD to teach a first year undegrad course anyways? Most of the time the PhD is just to pass the filter and get hired as an adjunct.

    In few words, the online paradigm seems to increase the risk of academic fraud. I don't have any hard evidence as I don't have any study for this but it looks like many are doing it just judging by the number of people offering these services.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2010
  10. bazonkers

    bazonkers New Member

    Even in graduate programs? The brief exposure I got to B&M graduate studies at Penn State (by dating a student :)) was that they had a desk in an office (usually a hallway) but were better able to have conversations with their peers about interesting topics. They seemed to have better relationships with their peers which might be useful throughout their career.
     
  11. bazonkers

    bazonkers New Member

    I wouldn't say these are all absent from B&M schools. I had undergrad courses taught by TAs that were only qualified to teach the class because they took it years back as an undergrad themselves. In addition, I've had summer classes at Penn State that were 8 weeks long. I just found out the other day that Louisiana tech is a semester credit school but is on a quarter system! Each class is 10 weeks long but still earns you 3 credits.

    As for proctored/non-proctored exams, that might be an issue that needs to be resolved but it depends on the class. In my graduate history courses there aren't any exams, it's all paper writing and research. I'd imagine that would be the same in a B&M program. Even in B&M schools, however, I remember skipping the entire semester in a few classes except to get the syllabus and to take the exams. The professor had NO idea who I was (never was in class) but let me sit the exam without having to show ID. I could have easily sent someone else.
     
  12. bazonkers

    bazonkers New Member

    I also wanted to add that education is what YOU make of it. I'm learning a ton from my program even though it's a for-profit DL. My classes interest me and I feel challenged. They make me want to go read additional outside reading to better round out my knowledge. Someone else might go to a B&M program and do the absolute minimum to get by. Who got the better education?
     
  13. CS1

    CS1 New Member

    Unless someone has personally evaluated every D&L and B&M program in a similar subject, I don't see how it could be determined on an objective basis. A more likely assumption is that there are probably good and bad educations to be had with either medium. However, for a great many people, DL seems like a convenient way to study, albeit it requires a lot of discipline to study on your own.
     
  14. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    I think this is the bottom line of the issue, a motivated student will use the skills earned in a program regardless of how the degree was earned.
    The problem is that you have tons of people that work in the government that can get a pay bump because of a degree, it is very tempting for those people just to abuse the weakness of the online paradigm just to increase revenue.
     
  15. CS1

    CS1 New Member

    I think the issue has more to do with whether or not someone is predisposed to cheating. If they are, then it won't matter whether they cheat online or in a classroom, since by nature they are a cheater.
     
  16. bazonkers

    bazonkers New Member

    Maybe that's one of the issues that needs to be fixed. Why should someone get a bump in pay simply for having an additional degree when they stay in the same job? Maybe it should be all merit based. Same goes for teachers and why there are so many MEd/EdD programs online. If there was no monetary incentive simply by getting the degree but was based on what you learned and how you can use it when you get a promotion, that might be a start.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2010
  17. PhD2B

    PhD2B Dazed and Confused

    I have been in both B&M and DL programs and my answer is most definitely yes!
     
  18. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    The minute you do this, you will see that most of the online schools will go out of business. I have worked for few online schools and this is their primary market; people that can get instant benefit from a degree regardless where it comes from as long is accredited. This includes teachers, military personnel, government employees, etc.

    This is the reason why schools need to make programs "user friendly".
     
  19. RFValve

    RFValve Well-Known Member

    But how much would that have cost you? I recall few students that were doing this and they were charging as much as 3 thousand per exam. I'm sure it happens and there are people willing to pay thousands of dollars to pass a class but online just makes it easier to find cheaper people willing to do it and it is also less risky.
     
  20. bazonkers

    bazonkers New Member

    As much as I enjoy DL and it has benefited me, maybe that isn't a bad thing. If most of them exist solely to cater to people that only care about the bump in pay, then maybe we do have too many DL programs. Maybe DL should retool to focus on offering programs to people that genuinely want the education but don't live near a major university or don't want to uproot their life to move near one. They could also be successful focusing on programs that have low regional demand but would make up for that by increasing their possible student pool to appeal to the worldwide demand.
     

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