DL Doctorate vs. RA SBC Seminary Degree

Okay, I may have a slightly different line of questioning for all of the regulars out there. I have followed many many of the threads that relate to DL doctorates and I must say that I am still in somewhat of a quandary as to my best option.

**Also before I present my dilemma, I would be impressed if any of you experts out there could recommend a DL university GAAP where one can actually receive a DL doctorate in theology other than Unisa(for now)or Potchefstroom.

I am working on a THM in theology at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. I would like to be able to both pastor and teach in the academic arena. While SEBTS has RA it also carries with it the weight of SBC denominational limitations and conservative presuppositions. While I am very happy to be both SBC and conservative theologically, I nevertheless love all people and would like to have opportunities outside the SBC with regard to teaching. Therefore, while a PHD from SEBTS may have RA, am I better served by going the DL GAAP route? That is, if I want to kept my options open. Or am I better off with an RA PHD?

I think that a DL doctorate with GAAP will not hurt me in ministry because of my MDiv and THM at an SBC seminary, but my real concern is academically. What do you think?
And please don't ultimately tell I will have to decide for myself, because believe me I will. However, the Bible does tell us with much council does one succeed. So give me your straightforward council, if you please.

Pastor Bill

 

As you probably know, to teach at the Seminary you need either the DMin, the THD, or PhD in theology. To teach in the secular environment you will need a PhD. DL PhD's are not well received in the University teaching environment and the junior colleges are very competitive (political).

If you want to teach I would suggest you find a brick and mortar school where you can get a PhD in an academic area. You are right, the SB stance will most probably limit you to SB schools.

------------------
Howard Rodgers

 

Hey, Bill--welcome to the forum! Thanks for sharing your scenario here. Although I now serve in another Baptist denomination, I am ordained in the SBC. At present, I am completing a distance-based MTh through the largest Baptist seminary in Europe--Spurgeon's College, London. This GAAP degree program has in no way proved a hindrance to me. Rather, it has been quite an asset to me both among my ministerial peers and within my academic relational network.

I plan to pursue an overseas PhD by DL upon the completion of my MTh later this year. My hope is to ultimately move into a full-time professorship in practical theology at an undergraduate institution.

You will receive a great deal of advice on this forum regarding the value of RA versus GAAP degrees for gaining professorships in the US. Let me forewarn you now: the rules simply are different for people in theological field than for those in most other academic disciplines. The rules are different because the culture of the theological disciplines is quite different than that of other fields. We theologians place a great deal of value on tradition and global dialogue. We know that much of the best theology is being done elsewhere in the world, and that many institutions in other locations have rich traditions of theological excellence to offer. Thus, generally speaking, the graduate of the University of Zurich, or Tubingen, or Munich, Basel, Leuven, Uppsala, Leeds, Edinburgh, Otago, Stellenbosch (not to mention the obvious places like Oxford, Cambridge, London) and a host of other overseas institutions are not likely to be placed at any great disadvantage when competing with RA degree holders. In fact, a great number of graduates of such overseas institutions presently hold prominent positions within the US theological community. Now, mind you, certain institutions will always favor the graduates of RA outfits like Duke, Emory, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Chicago. Yet, I'm not sure that an RA doctorate from St. Louis, Marquette, Loyola, Denver, or Baylor would necessarily be considered better than an overseas doctorate simply because its RA. If you want to arrive at a fair answer to your question, I advise you to listen most carefully to those who have a good sense of what is going on in the theological disciplines.

I do think that there is some benefit to earning an RA doctorate if one is able. However, within theological circles, it simply is not an imperative. At the same time, if you desire to fit broadly into the conservative evangelical academic community, I would encourage you to avoid a doctorate from SEBTS (although I think that the SEBTS is taking an exciting, refreshing approach to doctoral education). I respectfully submit this opinion as one well-acquainted with both the SBC and wider evangelical academic cultures.

One other quick thing: I could name at least twenty-two other GAAP institutions in the UK, South Africa, and Australia presently offering doctorates in theological subjects by DL. Most (with the exception of about 5 of them) of them would require between 2 and six weeks per year in residence. Some are more expensive than others. If you could describe what sort of institution you'd want to attend (i.e, doctrinal/philosophical character, large/small, etc.) and the specific discipline in which you'd like to undertake research (by theology, do you specifically mean systematic theology? historical theology?), I might be able to point you in some promising directions.

I'll be glad to interact with you further. Thanks again for sharing.

Cory Seibel

 

By the way, at present, I can point to about 35 to 40 US professors who either earned, or are in the process of earning, doctorates through overseas institutions by DL.

 

Cory,

I did not realize that the largest Baptist seminary in Europe is Spurgeon's College, London. I concur with your findings on European schools vs. RA US degrees. I was accepted to Edinburough last year but my wife got pregnant and the whole ‘hoof and mouth’ outbreak, along with the financial burden of a new addition caused me to reconsider. Besides they require one to first be admitted to the ThM or MPhil before advancing to the PhD level. Therefore, since I was already at SEBTS and enjoying my studies I elected to pass the offer, as much as it pained me, and to do a ThM here instead.

I now find myself torn as to the next move. Since it is a terminal degree, I feel the urgency to make a good decision. After reading all the different threads, you guys have actually got me convinced that DL is a viable option, granted it is GAAP. I am shocked that you know of 22 other GAAP institutions. Out of curiosity, how do you know that they are all GAAP? My first difficulty has been in finding GAAP schools with doctorates in theology. My second difficulty has been in finding out whether or not they are GAAP.

Cory, I appreciate your help and I will look forward to your input, as well as anyone else’s. This DL is all sort of new to me. I did not realize there were so many options, big small with doctrinal preferences, etc. I guess if I had to decide I would want to go to the best school possible and start from there. My interests are mainly in Christian doctrine, but I do enjoy engaging cultural issues. My master’s thesis is on Balthasar Hubmaier, so I also enjoy historical theology. Of primary interest to me is to be able to earn a doctorate that will grant me opportunity. If that means that I have to work my interests into an existing pool of interests in the faculty to study at a better school, then I am flexible. Not that you have to but I would really like to know as big a group of schools that you feel you could recommend to me and take a look at them and see what I think. Also, I am very interested to know more about the faculty that you mentioned, who have or are getting DL doctorates. Lastly, how is your ThM going and to what does your thesis pertain?

God Bless,

Pastor Bill

 

Bill, good to hear from you! Yes, not only is Spurgeon's the largest Baptist seminary in Europe. In many ways it serves as the flagship Baptist seminary for most of Europe, Africa, and parts of Australia. While not known so well by many Baptists here in the States, it is highly regarded by most Baptists throughout the world. When I interact with Baptist scholars from Australia or South Africa, they usually respond with much excitement and enthusiasm upon learning of my affiliation with Spurgeon's. This reputation is well deserved, for it truly is a fine institution.

I am completing the MTh in Applied Theology, and am writing a dissertation on the assimilation of Gen Xers into the local church.

I'm afraid my time is a bit limitted right now, so I won't be able to provide you the sort of detailed information your enquiry deserves at this point. However, I will provide you a list of schools that would enable you to do research in theology largely at a distance (I'll note as many as I can think of for right now). You'll have to go hunting for websites on your own time, I'm afraid. Please bear in mind that many of these schools will require you to spend some time in residence, anywhere from 2-6 weeks per year. I will list the name of the institution, the university by which it is validated (where relevant), residency requirements (where I'm aware of them), and denominational affiliation.

Nazarene Theological College (University of Manchester); requires a couple of weeks in residence per year; Church of the Nazarene

Trinity College, Bristol (University of Bristol); can require as many as 6 weeks in residence per year; evangelical Anglican; this institution enjoys an exceptional reputation, as does the university with which it is affiliated.

Highlands Theological College, Dingwall, Scotland (Open University); one to two brief residencies per year; Reformed

Spurgeon's College (University of Wales); www.spurgeons.ac.uk ; 4-6 weeks per year in residence; Baptist Union of Great Britain

Evangelical Theological College of Wales (University of Wales & University of Glamorgan); ??????; conservative evangelical

University of Wales, Lampeter; residency requirements vary; secular, non-denominational, non-sectarian

Oak Hill Theological College, London (Middlesex University); probably expect a couple of weeks per year; evangelical Anglican

International Christian College, Glasgow (Open University); probably expect at least a couple of weeks per year; non-denominational evangelical

University of Pretoria, South Africa; www.up.ac.za ; only residency requirement is to make an appearance for defense at conclusion of program; predominantly Reformed, however undergoing a restructuring process to become more interdenominational

South Africa Theological Seminary (University of Zululand); no residency requirement; non-denominational evangelical

AFM Theological Seminary (Rand Afrikaans University, South Africa); approximately one month at some point during your enrollment in the program; Pentecostal

Baptist Theological College of Western Australia (Murdoch University); will require a total of several months in residence over the course of your enrollment; Baptist Union

Cape Town Baptist Theological Seminary (University of Pretoria); residency requirements the same as those for U of P; Baptist

London Bible College (Unviversity of Brunel); I'm a bit uncertain about residency requirements; nondenominational evangelical; this institution is highly regarded througout the world. A BIT EXPENSIVE by comparison.

St. Johns College, Nottingham (though they are affiliated with the University of Nottingham, they offer part-time distance based PhD only in conjunction with Open University); I'm not sure about residency requirements; Anglican

Australian Catholic University; I'm not too sure if they require any time in residency or not.

Well, most of the other institutions of which I am aware specialize more in disciplines like Missiology, evangelism, or practical theology. These places wouldn't be of relevance to you, so I'll refrain from mentioning them here. Perhaps I am forgetting a few places, so will add them to my list if they come back to mind.

I wish I could provide you links to the websites bearing biographies to all of the professors to whom I've mentioned, but, again, my time is limitted. Several have earned degrees from institutions affiliated with Univ. of Wales. More than 20 have doctorates from the University of South Africa. A few have gained the PhD through Trinity College, Bristol. A few others have earned doctorates through institutions affiliated with Open University.

Well, I hope this provides you a helpful start. Let me know if you have trouble locating this schools. Happy searching.

Cory Seibel

 

Thanks Cory!

 

Cory,

This may have been a divine appointment. I have initially look at several of the these schools and your school, Spurgeon's College has an established partnership with the Beeson Divinity School at Samford University, Birmingham, Alabama, whereby Beeson graduates can undertake postgraduate research at Spurgeon's College, while continuing to reside in the United States.

Timothy George was a professor at SEBTS before he went to Beeson. When I think of all the people in the SBC that I would want to study with he is near the top. Well, as it turns out he could potentially be my secondary supervisor.

You will have to tell all about Spurgeon's college and what you know about their PhD programme.

Thanks again.

God Bless,

Pastor Bill

P.S. I am still open to others contributions. As they say it takes a village to raise a child. And we are all babes before Christ!

 

I am familiar with this Beeson arrangement. Beeson is a neat school. I agree that Timothy George is one of the best minds in the SBC today, and that he represents a much more irenic and conciliatory brand of scholarship than one is destined to encounter in many other corners of SBC academia. I'm sure it would be a great privilege to study under this man.

To the best of my knowledge, somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 Americans have channeled through the Spurgeon's PhD program in recent years. As I mentioned earlier, the degree is actually granted by the University of Wales, by which Spurgeon's is validated. For students enrolled directly through Spurgeon's College, the PhD is extremely inexpensive. I'm not sure what the tuition arrangement for students enrolled in the Beeson scheme would be.

Of course, the academic standards one would be expected to meet would be comparable to that required at other British institutions.

On a full-time basis, you'd likely to be enrolled for a minimum of 3 years. On a part-time basis, if this option is available through the Beeson scheme, you'd likely need to be enrolled for a minimum of 5 years.

I'm not sure which of the Spurgeon's professors would be available to serve as supervisors for PhD candidates in theology. The ones I suspect would be available are accomplished scholars with doctorates from institutions like King's College, London and the University of Wales.

Let me know if I can provide you any additional information.

Cory

 

Bill,

Here are three more:

University of the Free State, South Africa--Reformed perspective, but have expressed a willingness to work with me in Baptist studies. http://www.uovs.ac.za

University of the Western Cape, South Africa--very welcoming and helpful. I'm at work right now and can't remember the link.

University of the North, South Africa--Nelson Mandella is Chancellor here. They were willing to work with me, but I got the impression that English wasn't the primary language of instruction.

Good luck!

 

Michael,

I read something somewhere about the University of the North, or at least one of their campuses being merged into the Univ. of the Free State. Have you encountered anything about this?

Also, Michael, have these institutions expressed a willingness to allow doctoral candidates to work at a distance? I know you've stated that they've seemed willing to cooperate with distance-based master's students; but, have they articulated a willingness to accomodate doctoral candidates as well? If so, I would be interested in looking into these options.

Very interesting...

Cory

 

That's the merger of Qwa-Qwa branch of University of the North into University of the Free State. This was a decision based on ease of administration. Qwa-Qwa is geographically in the Free State, not in the North (actually more than 300 miles from Univ. of North).

 

Cory,

I checked the University of the North website, and I no longer even see a theology department.

As for the other two, although I don't know for certain if they would accommodate DL doctoral candidates, my strong feeling is that they would.

 

A response to your enquiry about post-graduate doctoral study.

We have many enquiries from the United States for those wishing to pursue post-graduate doctoral study through Spurgeon’s College.

This is a complex issue for us and in spite of the offer of such study made in our website our response to such enquiries and applications cannot be immediately positive.

This is partly because we have already too many research students for our limited resources, as well as applications in process. In addition, though the arrangement with American research students has worked satisfactorily for some in the past, our observation is that most students trying to do a British PhD at a distance have found it hard to complete successfully. They may have done equally well or better with the research resources and supervision in America. For these reasons we are reluctant to encourage such applications.

It is also important to understand that in Britain a PhD is not a course, or programme, like a taught Master’s course. It is entirely gained by supervised research on the student’s part. A topic is agreed with the supervisor and the student produces a 100,000 word thesis which makes an original contribution to the knowledge of the subject. The basic entry level is a previous theology degree, a minimum qualification of a ThM (MTh) or equivalent..

Any prospective applicant will be strongly advised to speak to someone who has already completed doctoral studies in a UK university fully to understand the implications of such study.

I trust this helps you in your consideration of your future study.


Rev Chris Voke BD
Tutor for Admissions
e-mail: [email protected]


What a bummer!

I was actually excited about Spurgeons up and until I tried to apply!

Do they give this run around to everyone or was I singled out for some reason?

Just wondering,

Pastor Bill

 

Bill,

No, you have not been singled out. I received much the same response. I do believe that it reflects the experience Spurgeon's has had with some recent American Ph.D. students. I trust that CL can do us proud and restore some of the respect.

I do also believe it reflects a certain segment of British postgraduate educational thinking. That is, American standards are not quite to the level necessary.

That being said, to many overseas institutions an American M.Div. does not have the prerequisite academic rigor to gain entry to a Ph.D. program. Generally, they want to see a high level of research and writing ability.

Don't give up!

Craig

 

Bill,

Having re-read Chris Voke's reply, I find it is the standard response to American students. As you will have a M.Th. in hand, I would suppose your application would find a warmer reception than a M.Div. only.

I can understand their caution. I do believe, however, that they consider each application on its own merits. They are more realistic in putting a damper on prospective students up front. Other schools may give a false hope to encourage applications, and then reply with a negative final answer. Spurgeon's is a refreshing, if painful, way to handle the situation.

Craig

 

Bill,

Sorry about my delay in adding my response here.

I agree that the note from Chris Voke does reflect some concerns the Spurgeon's folks possess based upon their past experiences with American PhD students. Yet, I wouldn't be too discouraged. Chris is an extremely gentle and sensitive individual. It would be uncharacteristic of him to respond in an unduly harsh, flippant, or dismissive manner.

In reality, I believe that the note you received reflects Spurgeon's high level of excellence in student service. Chris simply sought to paint as realistic as possible a picture of the challenges one must take into consideration when endeavouring to apply for a PhD through Spurgeon's. The British PhD in theological disciplines involves rigorous research and a high standard of scholarly writing. Sometimes it is difficult for American students, most of whom are not accustomed with the academic standards of the UK system, to write "up to standard" at a distance from overseas without the benefit of frequent, face-to-face interaction with a British supervisor. Of course, email provides an excellent means of dialogue and feedback; yet, I think that Spurgeon's may have found some American students to be needing a higher level of structure and guidance. Of course, this may not be the case with you; yet, I imagine the folks at Spurgeon's have come to recognize the need to at least raise this issue with prospective American students. Again, I don't think it is so much a matter of Spurgeon's "protecting" themselves against "subpar" American students as much as a matter of Spurgeon's looking to serve the best interests of American students, with a view to their greatest chances of academic success (ergo, Chris' advice that, for many American students, perhaps an American program is more suitable).

In addition, as Chris stated in his response, the Spurgeon's faculty is limitted in the amount of supervision it can provide. By American standards, the Spurgeon's faculty is not large. Yet, in terms of student enrollment, it is the largest Bapist theological institution in Europe, offering several certificate and bachelor's courses, a host of MTh degrees, as well as the MPhil and PhD. The members of the faculty are working very hard. They have to be realistic regarding how much they can handle. They don't mean to be unaccomodating; however, like the rest of us, they realize there is only so much they can do well.

One other important consideration: Spurgeon's does not offer "distance learning" or "open learning" PhD's. Much like most other British theological institutions offering students the opportunity to engage in PhD research from overseas, they say things like, "It is possible for students to engage in PhD research part-time from other locations in the world, with brief residencies in the UK." This is not "open learning," strictly. Rather, what they are doing is allowing students, instead of making an appearance at the college to meet with a supervisor every few weeks, to condense their supervisory visits into a brief span of a few weeks a year. At Spurgeon's, specifically, over the course of your enrollment, you would end up spending approximately 6 months in London (6 weeks each of the first two years--which many students break up into 2 three week stays; and 4 weeks during each of the 3rd through 5th years). So, essentially, you are fulfilling residency requirements similar to other students, but just in another format. It is important, also, to bear in mind that, for Spurgeon's and many other British theological institutions, these limited residency arrangements with overseas students generally are intended (and desired) to be more the exceptions than the rule. As opposed to Greenwich School of Theology or the University of South Africa or SA Theological Seminary, all of which are schools exclusively devoted to accomodating distance students, and who generally respond with warm enthusiasm to enquiries from prospective distance students, Spurgeon's and other similar UK theological colleges should be expected to respond with a greater measure of reserve and cautiousness, because they haven't made it their aim to become "distance learning PhD-sponsoring" institutions.

All this being said, I would encourage you to still proceed in investigating a potential future as a Spurgeon's PhD student. Please understand that you will be valued as a Spurgeon's student, and that the cautiousness you have encountered initially simply reflects this valuation.

I would be pleased to interact with you further about this if you'd like.

Cory Seibel