Looking for input on Doctorate program

Hey folks, would like to get your opinion on a couple different programs I am looking at, as folks that has gone down this road, and understand a bit about teaching / adjunct, dissertation process, etc.

As some of you may know from my introduction thread, I have been teaching with Keller University and Univ of Phoenix online since 2004 and 2002 respectively.

In the last 2 weeks I have been looking around and putting in some applications at other schools for online teaching in accounting as both of those schools, the teaching has dropped off some. (It is funny how as you reach “Senior Instructor” level and they have to pay you more per class, they start using you less!) They say it is due to enrollment levels, etc, but as an accountant, I understand the bottom line mentality.


My goal with a Doctorate is basically to have that “terminal degree” notch on my belt when I do apply for teaching online positions, that opens up quite a few more doors than the MBA + CPA (inactive)

I am not interested in a tenured position at a major university, I am happy working here at the CPA firm. However, I am trying to look out 5-10+ years from now the senior partners retire, and I may decide to go another direction / early-retirement = tax season + online teaching as my income sources, plus a bit of consulting.

Someone made a bit of a warning in my introduction thread, just to be wary of teaching online as your only source of income, etc.

WOW, how about all of that as a huge intro to my actual query!!


Would love to get your thoughts on these schools / degrees

My current First choice

www.mountainstate.edu Doctorate of Executive Leadership, 3 years, approx cost 32,000, dissertation in final year, 4 days per year on campus in residence. B&M (Brick & Mortar) school, NCA accred. Used to be a junior college, this is a NEW degree for them.


www.baker.edu Doc Business Admin (Specializations, possibly self designed Accounting, or one of their prebuilt), 3 years, approx cost 43000, NCA + IACBE, 1 professional conference per year as residency. B&M, used to be Jr college years ago, also a fairly new degree for them.


www.UMUC.edu Doctorate of Management, 4 years on avg, approx cost 53000, Middle States accred, dissertation in final years, cohort model, 3 weekends per year in residence, B&M school, part of University of Maryland system!! Small fish in HUGE pond is a worry here, otherwise prob the most "reputable" of the schools I am looking at as far as knee jerk public reaction like that Bizweek article thread.


www.NCU.edu PhD (or DBA) in Advanced Accounting (which is actually what I would prefer), 4 years, approx cost 35000, dissertation phase has bad reputation on here of being difficult to get through. NCA and ACBSP accred.

That they are a FOR PROFIT school is my biggest hang up here, despite their accred. Plus the worries about getting through their program with that reputation. No residence requirement is a bonus. 8000 students, and 570 graduated last year, assuming avg of 4 years, works out to 25% graduation rate!!!???


I have considered other programs, Anderson has a DBA (in accounting) but what is killing that one for me is 4 WEEKS per year in residence is just more time than I am sure I can commit away from the firm, no vacation time left for my wife and me, etc. The CHOG connection would be great for me personally as I grew up in that church setting. I still think about this one quite a bit, cost is good, Regional accred, ACBSP, etc but 4 weeks a year is just over the line imho. 27k or so in cost...

Walden, Nova, Kennesaw, Argosy and Capella have priced themselves beyond what I am willing to spend.

I am NOT considering any of the DETC schools...

I considered George Fox, Regent, but don't see any extra benefit there vs one of the above "top choices"

I actually would get a discount at Univ of Phx as an instructor, bringing their program down to 35000ish, but even as a instructor at TWO “for profit” universities, if I have a choice, a RA B&M does carry more weight for me personally.


NOW...

The DEL at Mountain sounds interesting, but I worry a bit there about folks not knowing / thinking much value in a degree in “Leadership”? Course to me it would be similar to getting say a “Ed D.” In that it seems pretty generic, could be applied to many places, might open up some doors into academic leadership roles?

The other thing I considered is trying to teach CPE/CLE type courses in leadership based on the DEL / long term, or do Leadership events, retreats, training, etc?


Does the colleges really care whether the Doctorate is a DBA / DEL / DM / etc... I suspect they lump all of those into one bucket and PhD into another?

But as long a the potential Adjunct faculty members has the “Terminal Degree?” I suspect this checks off a box for them during their accred process, too?

Thanks for giving this a bit of thought and sharing with me your thoughts.

As I am trying to decide which application to fill out (or if I should do multiple), and many of the deadlines are in the next 6 weeks to start this summer.


If there is something not listed above that you think I should seriously consider I am open to it. (Example, K-State PhD in CFP... just not sure I want to go that road, I can sit for CFP right now as an Inactive CPA)


THANKS so much for your thoughts!!!

 

FOLLOW UP question:

For folks that have gone back to school / part time to get their Doctorate degree. What are the hoops for jumping thru to get a student loan to pay for this?

I am assuming that I make too much money to get a grant, and that most scholarships do not apply, etc.

I am looking at having to come up with $4000 ish per semester (so by May/June), which with the cutback in teaching income would be pretty far fetched at this point.

I could delay this a year and try to build up a nest egg / but if getting a student loan for terminal degree is pretty normal, then I will go that route, paying cash or paying it off early as I do have extra money.

 

I'm working on a PhD at NCU and paying for it out-of-pocket. I looked into loans, such as the Stafford Loan, and they just don't give doctorate students any breaks. There are no loan subsidies available whatsoever. I used Stafford subsidies in my master's work and was happy to avoid any interest expense until after my degree was finished. There just aren't those kinds of breaks out there for doctoral students, at least none that I could find.

The one saving grace with attending NCU is the fact that it is pay-as-you-go. Just like many other online schools, you take one class at a time and pay only for the class you take. So the payments are spread out and are working out to be manageable.

As for the ABD rate at NCU, I have heard the same as you about the issues with getting through the dissertations. However, I have talked to a number of people who made it through their NCU dissertations without any undue trouble. That's not to say it was easy, but, according to those I corresponded with, it was not ridiculous. I'll find out first-hand in a couple of years!

 

Well, I am not an expert in the Doctoral degrees; however, I would consider in Regent University if going for Leadership route. I was a big fan of Northcentral University until recently I read so many negatives about the school. As for me, I consider JD, MD, DBA, DM, DrPH are Professional Doctoral degree, and Ph.D is in the academia path.

Have you consider international schools, likes UK, France, Australia, and South Africa?

 

Don't worry too much about the specific designation (DBA, Ph.D,, etc.). Take the degree that will fit your needs. But there's the rub, eh?

What do you want to be? If we were talking about a master's, I'd want to know what you felt you needed to learn to be more effective in your career. You might, for example, want to improve your accounting skills. Or you might want to improve your supervisory/managerial skills. Whatever. A master's is good for that kind of thing. But a doctorate? Another matter entirely.

When you undertake a doctorate, it should be because that's the field you expect not only to master, but to advance. You'll live in it. It will define you (or should). So what kind of expert would you like to be? Study that.

My story is one of failure in that regard. When I first set out to do a Ph.D., I was in my mid-20's and in the beginnings of a career as an Air Force officer. My Air Force specialty was education and training, and I saw myself one day working at a DL school after leaving the Air Force. But because I took so long to graduate, what I set out to do and what I had become had changed dramatically. By the time I graduated I was a seasoned training and development professional. I tried to go a different route once I'd taken the Ph.D., but it was a mistake. (I chaired a campus department of UoP for a year. I was then offered a dean's position at two universities very well known on this board, but turned them down to return to T&D--and the commensurate salaries.)

So now I have a Ph.D. in a field in which I do not work, I do not research, and I will likely not do so in my future. It's kind of messed up, which is why I'm fixing it.

 

I will be presenting (along with four business professors) research that we did on the DBA vs. PhD in business. We found that in the U.S. the DBA and PhD are virtually identical in coursework and preparation, but that some DBA programs may require the dissertation to focus on solving an organizational problem (a content analysis of dissertations will determine whether that is, in fact, true).

Of the business grad school faculty with terminal degrees that we surveyed, the PhD was held by 71%, the DBA by 17% and other doctorates (EdD, JD, DM, etc) by the remaining 12%.

The JD, MD, DDS, DMD, OD, DO, DPM, DVM & PharmD are examples of first professional degrees that used to be undergraduate degrees. They are now considered graduate degrees, but not research degrees. A dissertation is not required and one would seek a masters degree after completing the first professional degree.

The DBA, EdD, DM, DA, ThD are examples of research-based professional doctorates, recognized by the US Dept. of Education and the National Science Foundation as equivalent to the PhD. They have always been considered graduate degrees. One would normally complete a masters degree before enrolling in one of these doctoral programs. They require research course work and a research dissertation. They are "professional" in the sense that they are usually administered by the discipline department/school/college, rather than the university's graduate school.

 

So the magic question - how are you fixing it?

 

Still looking for suggestions.

 

Doctorate program input

This is a school that has been involved in non-traditional and distance education since the very beginning. They were listed in the earliest editions of Bear's Guide. I don't think I have ever read any UMUC "horror stories", something which can't be said about NCU!

http://www.ripoffreport.com/Colleges-and-Universities/Northcentral-Univers/northcentral-university-don-t-458w2.htm

http://www.onlinedegreereviews.org/college/northcentral-university-reviews/

http://www.guidetoonlineschools.com/online-reviews/northcentral-university

Owing to the lack of a track record with distance ed doctorates, Mountain State and Baker may be a bit riskier than one of the recognized leaders in the field like UMUC.

 

What exactly are you trying to fix? That your PhD is in a field that you do not work in? I think that is pretty common.

 

Yes to your question. I agree with your statement.

 

How about a grad certificate from a "big name school" (DL or B&M) in the field you are working in? I think it would be quick and effective.

 

Yeah, that's a good option. So is going for another master's. Both of those would serve to bolster one's credentials in one's field. If that was one's goal, of course.

 

Just got off the phone with my Godfather Art, who is a senior admininistrator at a B&M down in Florida, and we talked alot about what I want to teach and making sure my credentials are in line for that.

I have been teaching in accounting, and I am good at that. I can explain fairly technical details in a way that my students are able to grasp the material and apply it.

So the goal here is to make me more attractive as a faculty member teaching in accounting.

I think I could accomplish a side goal, which would be to expand my ability to teach in a second area (possibly Finance, Management) since I have 12 or so hours in those from my MBA.

I only have 3 hours of graduate accounting, but since I passed the CPA exam, became certified in NC in 1996, from what I understand that is the equivalent of having a Masters in Accounting (as far as credentials board)


What he is suggesting is to call the colleges I am looking at and tell them my goal (continue teaching in accounting) and look at setting up a specific "program of study" to accomplish that.

Baker has the DBA, and allows you to choose the specialization (or do a "Self Designed" which in that case I would say I would focus on an accounting specialization)

UMUC, they have the DM, but I cannot tell if you can "focus" it at all, I think I will call the school and talk this over with them.

MSU, DEL, seems to be more HR focused, so that would qualify me to teach more in that area, which is out of the area I am in now.

Excellent comments so far, thanks for the answers!!

So, with Regional Accred in mind, and keeping THEM happy, therefore the school wants to keep me around, any further thoughts?

This would tend to make me think more of the NCU PhD/DBA in accounting, but we still have the dissertation reputation + we know the B&M schools would be bias if I ever did want to teach there...

So, basically I guess I am still up in the air, other than I know that to stay teaching in accounting, I need to make sure that when the RA board is coming thru and looking at my credentials, that they are happy that I am an accounting faculty member.

That is the goal.... make the schools LOVE me, giving me lots of classes, increase my attractiveness for getting classes. After all, this all started because I am getting LESS classes from my two schools...I want to reverse that trend.

 

What is the dissertation reputation? A difficult process that the school does not walk you through or something else?

 

There are some threads here on this board where the person is hollering about the process and that several others have reported on here too hearing the same thing.

Basically that the school has no motivation to help you thru the process, if anything they get paid more to drag it out.

That plus the fact they mention 8000 students, and the graduating class was 570. You can back into the fact that means a LARGE percentage of folks must not be graduating!!

The other comments I have heard is the no residence is nice BUT it also helps during the process if you CAN meet! (I like the cohort system myself but we will see)

Still looking....

 

The dissertation is a personal process, why is the university supposed to help you through the process? It is a partnership with you and your chair and you hold the responsibiltiy for becoming the expert in you topic.

 

The process is a bear but it is "doable" and I could not imagine one school where they help you through the process. In my mind (a very odd place sometimes) the difficulty and fact that "a LARGE percentage of folks must not be graduating!!" is a good thing and adds value to the institution and degree. People complain that the schools lack rigor and other complain that it is too difficult to manage the process. Where is the happy medium? To be honest, I have not found it to be too bad. Imagine if everyone got into Harvard and graduated...what would that do to the perceived value of the degree?

I think (again, just my view) that people have come close to "wanting" things done for them and whine when the responsibility falls on their shoulders. How many times do people ask questions (even on this board) and never try to find the answer themselves (like using the Search button)? When they are not "told" the answer, they claim they do not get support. Alright, time to get off the soapbox.

As far as dragging out the process to get more money, I am sure these same people that complained never asked a few questions and found out (like I did) that the committee chairman can grant a 30 day extension for the class where you can continue to work on the papers/process and not pay...there is always more than one side to a story.

 

Just an update, looked over my MBA transcript this morning and I have 12 graduate hours already in MGT courses, and another 3 courses in POM, so in theory that should qualify me now to teach in those areas?

MGT 5020 APPL ORGANIZATION THEORY
MGT 5030 ORGANIZATIONAL COMMUNIC
MGT 5530 MANAGERIAL NEGOTIATION
MGT 5750 ORG STRATEGY & POLICY
POM 5260 MANAGEMENT SCIENCE
POM 5100 PROD/OPER MANAGEMENT
POM 4564 TOTAL QUALITY MANAGEMENT


Regarding the dissertation process, I have never written one, my MBA did not require a thesis so for me it will not really JUST be a "personal process."

In fact, my understanding is that the dissertation is very much a "team" process with you and your direct mentor having the closest relationship during this phase and then the rest of your dissertation team/committee.

So I guess what I talking about is a school where you are not just a number, these folks get to know YOU, you form relationships and they too have a vested interest in your success!!

I know I personally feel that way about MY students!! I still get phone calls, emails, sometimes years later asking my advice about their resume, or going on for their Masters, etc.

I will be making some phone calls today to some of the schools, but still reading everything / thread I can find on here to help make my decision!

JNerd

 

One more possibility, that I did not realize was available, and pretty hard to pass up.

http://www.ncat.edu/~lstudies/index.htm

PhD in Leadership Studies, that is here local to me, classes are in the evenings, so it is not a DL.

They allow for part time studies and as a NC resident, means my total cost will be 6-7000 or so!!

I am not sure if the Leadership program would be considered part of their business school or not, but they are AACSB!